Proper relaxed A2 fit

[Burnsie]

Worse than that - in March 1944 a raid on Regensburg was called off because of excessive blousing of the bombardiers' jackets. Must be true - you read it on the 'Web.

I'll keep that in mind the next time I raid Regensburg, in the meantime I like my every day wear to feel comfortable...

 

[Dudleydoright]

Fit ?

I've always been of the opinion that bomber crews needed a relaxed fit so that they could wear the A-2 over a bunnie-suit and flight suit to keep warm. The leather is a great windbreaker.

Fighter pilots perhaps wore the A-2 tight as an affectation to mark them out as different to the bomber boys and perhaps a nod to the fact that fighter cockpits were more confined than bomber positions and they didn't need to have something snag.

Fo rthe modern afficianado in purely practical terms it depends on where you live. As I'm in the UK and want to wear my jacket for as much of the year as I can, I need it a little large to get a sweater on under it in winter and just a T-shirt in summer when it looks a bit baggy. If I lived in a warmer climate that range of comfort in a range of temperatures isn't a requirement.

Nowhere on here or in the VLJ have I read that anyone has commented on the fact that aircrew had but ONE jacket. They did not go to a closet containing up to a dozen A-2's and decide that today is going to be a Dubow day or an Aero day or a tight jacket day or a loose jacket day Those guys (and the few lasses) didn't have that choice. Nor did they probably have much choice in the sizing and so what was deemed a good fit might depend on the whim of the Quartermaster issuing it.

There aren't many of us who are the same size as your average 20 year old from the 1940's and fewer who fly warbirds so what's the beef ? You want to be authentic ? Have only ONE jacket !!

(Burnsie, I like the one in your avatar. What make/model is it ?)

Dave

 

[bobbyball]

As we are all generally more flabby than our wartime, highly fit counterparts the A-2 is a less forgiving cut on the average shape of 2009. A belly is not good on a short jacket.

I have close and relaxed fitting A-2s and as I have lost weight recently I suit the more fitted A-2s.

The area of fit I am most critical is in the shoulder and armpit areas. The looser fit tends to ride up if you lift your arms so I am constantly pulling the jacket down around my waist. Although it is a personal preference, I want fairly trim arms and shorter epaulettes like the originals. I think the off-the-shoulder A-2 just doesn’t look right. Squared up to the shoulder looks more military?

I know Eastman have been criticised in the past and their recent A-2s do have an improved/more authentic cut. It is difficult for a repro maker as they are catering for a customer base NOW not back in the 1940s so there is always a judgement call to be made for comercial reasons.

IMO, the Japanese repros pay more of a hommage to the past in terms of cut but sometimes the arms are too wide.

It just goes to show that there is no two equal A-2s but there are some that are more equal than others

 

[Burnsie]

(Burnsie, I like the one in your avatar. What make/model is it ?)

Dave

That's actually the Aero I got rid of ...it was a limited edition steerhide "Aero Flight Manf" model.
I had to laugh when I read your post - we are far removed from getting stuck with the ONE jacket the quartermaster threw at us (custom fit be damned)!:eusa_clap

 

[Dudleydoright]

Steer

You can't beat steer for an 'authentic' horsehide look can you huh ?lol

I'm sure that there were lots of makers who used steer. If we still can't tell nowadays without a chemical analysis (and even then it's iffy isn't it after tanning?) wouldn't it be funny if half the jackets some croon about were, in reality, steer ? lol It seems to take SO much effort to get an authentic WW2 'horse' look that was an out-of-the-tannery finish back in the day it makes your head spin. Especially as steer looks great straight out of the box.

I have one A-2. That's plenty. If I had 6 it would take 6 times as long to wear them in and I'd end up like my missus trying to decide which dress to wear: trying loads on and ending up wearing the first one I put on

The thought of having 10 A-2's and several of the same maker but different contracts must make some old flyboys look down on us and shake their heads. And the live ones who get asked about what they wore rather than what they did and how they felt must be totally bamboozled.

Strange days and strange values we have now ...........

Dave

 

[Burnsie]

lol lol lol
This has brought up so much that's funny about the modern A-2 crowd (myself included) - I am guilty of wondering "does russet or seal brown go with my outfit today?":eusa_doh:
This thread has helped me to laugh at myself...my Wife's Uncle was a ball turrett gunner and was shot down over Irlich in 1944 spending the rest of the War as a POW...NO ONE in the family can recall what kind of jacket he may have had (yes I'm one of those..I asked )! And as for the horse VS steer debate, I don't know of any jacket head that has done a DNA test on his jackets but that doesn't mean the thought hasn't crossed SOMEONE'S mind! Thanks for some needed perspective Dave...

 

[Dudleydoright]

YW


You're most welcome Burnsie. Glad I made someone laugh rather than blow their top for a change

I'm not trying to be moralistic (I've got loads of jackets but none are remotely the same) and I'm not suggesting we all sell them off and donate the money to charity. However many jackets anyone has is their business but it does us all good to see our hobby/obsession in a real world perspective once in a while and to thank our lucky stars that the generation born into depression proved to be up to the task that was demanded of them from '39 to 45 (or '41 to 45 for the USA ). And that the flyboys didn't enlist just to get an A-2 lol . I would have !
Those are the people I :eusa_clap :eusa_clap

Dave

 

[H.Johnson]

This is a very sensitive topic.

Burnsie,

DNA testing - it's been done. On another forum long ago and far away there was a bitter argument over the possibility of cowhide accidentally or fraudulently being used on official A-2 contracts. I tried to see reason in this, and that's why the forum is long ago and far away (for me). Suffice it to say that one poster said he had looked though hundreds, if not thousands of wartime photographs of US airman and all their jackets were quite clearly horsehide lol .

Another claimed he could tell steerhide from cowhide . Both of these feats are, in my humble opinion, miracles and must result in sanctification for these people during the reign of the current Pope, if not membership of the X-Men. After some inreasingly accrimonious PMs due to my inability to see reason and requiring believable proof, I quietly left the forum, closing the door behind me.

Now, my daughter is a forensic scientist. A few years ago, after many trials, a colleague who became intrigued by this worked out a reasonably reliable way of extracting a testable 'junk' DNA sample for old tanned leather. I obtained a range of samples cut from the interfacing of A-2s and she sampled them. She obtained results. That is all I am going to say in a forum on which I intend to stay as long as I can.

 

[Dudleydoright]

Aaaaaargh

Oh Boy !! Now THAT is intriguing !!!!

We may have known each other by different names back then.

Dave

 

[CBI]

In regards a really "period 40's" A-2 cut, Goodwear does this the most accurately. In regards the "I can't tell if it's hourse or cow", I have never understood this, one can always tell the difference just by looking at it. I can only think of one or two orginal jackets that were so worn that it was hard to tell.

 

[Carlisle Blues]

both my a-2 jackets goatskin and horsehide are size 36 i just turned 50 ouch lol they fit well

Hey "old" buddy where are the pix you promisedlol lol

 

[fishmeok]

Burnsie,

Now, my daughter is a forensic scientist. A few years ago, after many trials, a colleague who became intrigued by this worked out a reasonably reliable way of extracting a testable 'junk' DNA sample for old tanned leather. I obtained a range of samples cut from the interfacing of A-2s and she sampled them. She obtained results. That is all I am going to say in a forum on which I intend to stay as long as I can.

Well that's just not fair- I for one would like to know the results...
Cheers
Mark

 

[rgraham]

Well that's just not fair- I for one would like to know the results...
Cheers
Mark

I second that motion.

 

[scotrace]

She obtained results. That is all I am going to say in a forum on which I intend to stay as long as I can.

Oh no you don't, my friend. I can overlook a great deal of incendiary noodle waggling, but if you say something like that, you've got to back it up.

...one can always tell the difference just by looking at it. I can only think of one or two orginal jackets that were so worn that it was hard to tell.

Oh no you don't, my friend. I can overlook a great deal of incendiary noodle waggling, but if you say something like that, you've got to back it up.

 

[Dudleydoright]

In regards a really "period 40's" A-2 cut, Goodwear does this the most accurately. In regards the "I can't tell if it's hourse or cow", I have never understood this, one can always tell the difference just by looking at it. I can only think of one or two orginal jackets that were so worn that it was hard to tell.

Cut sure, GW are o.k. So are RMNZ, The Few, ELC etc. Sizing no way !!!. A guy with a 38 chest may opt for a 42 so that it fits over his flight kit. YOU , my friend, cannot tell the size of a jacket that someone is wearing. Nor how many sizes it is allegedly too big or small for your particular tastes. You are thinking like a guy who buys suits. as someone who buys layerable clothing for work and play I tell you this assumption that a guy who wears a 40" suit is ONLY going to wear a 40" jacket for flying is nonsense.

You think you have the ability to tell between original hides as to whether or not they are horse or steer by looking at them? Maybe every original one you have seen is steer so you think it's horse lol How can you REALLY KNOW ?
Sefton did some great A-2's in steer as have Aero. After a small amount of wear they look original. And as for the ELC Pearl Harbour jackets....they look like original 'horse' !!

Where's the scientific evidence when I need it !!!

Dave

 

[feltfan]

"Chosen". "Proper".

An interesting concept of military gear distribution in wartime. 'Sorry, private, that doesn't quite fit ya. Hold on, we'll find a better one.'

bk

A good point. Since some of us pay upwards of $1000 or
more for these reproductions, we don't expect a mass produced
jacket that doesn't fit. We expect a very nice, comfortable jacket
for that money.

That may skew the pursuit of authentic fit, where authentic means
impersonal. Being choosey about the type of leather, tanning
process, etc, is also not authentic. The entire process surrounding
the manufacture and purchase of a Good Wear, ELC, or Aero jacket
is not authentic.

Few of us plan to put them through what WWII jackets were
put through, too. We want windbreakers that will wear nicely
with age. A different jacket may evolve from those conditions.

 

[CBI]

I am not saying that I can tell size, I am talking about cut and drape that is where GW does such a great job and others tend to go for a more modern fit (triangle vs. reverse triangle). In re HH vs. Cow, HH is smoother and the creasing, wear is different than cow, there are still smooth points (tiny areas) with the HH. Cow's creasing is more complete. Just look and quit the no you can't yes you can BS -ultimately - WHO CARES, there are just jackets. I have simply never inquired about a jacket that I have been interested in and not know if its HH or cow however, I don't really ask/wonder that ever unless I am buying. Geeeezz!

 

[Burnsie]

Burnsie,
That is all I am going to say in a forum on which I intend to stay as long as I can.

Stick around sir! Horse vs Steer isn't worth leaving another forum! Proper fit is enough of a raging debate...and I'm commited to NOT starting a "can you tell the difference" thread here!

 

[rgraham]

Stick around sir! Horse vs Steer isn't worth leaving another forum! Proper fit is enough of a raging debate...and I'm commited to NOT starting a "can you tell the difference" thread here!

It seems that he is holding back some information that would quell the debate regarding horse or cow, and the ability to tell the difference between the two. I say bring on the info and end the debate. :eusa_clap

 

[H.Johnson]

The information is that forensic scientists have a method of DNA sampling (known to us lay people as 'polymerase chain reaction' technique) that can recover testable samples from very small traces of DNA such as are found in old leather jackets. The tests to which I referred (which were carried out by my contact in her lunch hours over a two year period) produced 100% results. This means that anyone who is sufficiently interested can pay to have a jacket tested.

If you wish to do the test yourself, this may help you to get started:
http://www.accessexcellence.org/RC/CT/polymerase_chain_reaction.php