Proper relaxed A2 fit

[Fletch]

Horsehide whinnies when you move in it; cowhide moos. lol

My own favorite A-2 fitment is the original, as seen in those first generation contracts for Security Sportswear and Werber Coat.
Here's a great example on three B-10 crews from the 11th Bomb Squadron in 1935. (Note enlisted crew were not authorized to wear A-2s at the time.)

Click to enlarge

 

[rgraham]

The information is that forensic scientists have a method of DNA sampling (known to us lay people as 'polymerase chain reaction' technique) that can recover testable samples from very small traces of DNA such as are found in old leather jackets. The tests to which I referred (which were carried out by my contact in her lunch hours over a two year period) produced 100% results. This means that anyone who is sufficiently interested can pay to have a jacket tested.

If you wish to do the test yourself, this may help you to get started:
http://www.accessexcellence.org/RC/CT/polymerase_chain_reaction.php

I believe the information I'm speaking about are the results obtained from the "various samples" tested.

Things like:
Were there any samples that tested positive for cowhide?

If so, were they somehow distinguishable in appearance from the horse hides?

Just one, or the other answer to either question would be nice.

Thanks for the link, but I know my A-2 is made from contented cow. I ordered it that way.

 

[H.Johnson]

The results of the tests were irrelevant, as that was not their objective. The type of hide was not in serious doubt before the tests, based on visual examination. They were horsehide before the test and horsehide after it. They looked like horse, they proved to be horse. They were what I had and what I felt justified in taking physical samples from. The control samples that were used were from 1940s jackets that were labelled as horsehide. Guess what? Thay were horsehide, too.

I would like to make it clear that this does not mean that all A-2s made before and during WW2 were made of horsehide (apart, of course, from those made of goatskin!). Please don't anyone begin saying that anything was proved by this test, other than that wartime DNA can be recovered from old, tanned leather, when previous attempts had failed. I don't see any reason why other forensic laboratories cannot carry out the same type of test, although I can't guarantee it, of course.

The purpose of the tests was to try and introduce some scientific method into a debate that seemed (to me) to depend on an almost religious belief (i.e. conviction without proof) that certain people were infallible in their judgement. I don't believe that anyone can distinguish all types of horsehide from all types of cowhide with 100% accuracy on every occasion. And, more to the point, neither do many of the leather experts to whom I have spoken.

I'm not a DNA expert, but from the point of view of someone who has worked in the leather clothing industry, I still have problems with PCR as a method of detection, but in the light of historical details of the way the leather was sourced and prepared and the jackets were made up (which would possibly convince me that a small sample could be extrapolated to a larger population), it's better than nothing.

 

[rgraham]

Fair enough.

Thanks.

 

[deanglen]

Horsehide whinnies when you move in it; cowhide moos. lol

My own favorite A-2 fitment is the original, as seen in those first generation contracts for Security Sportswear and Werber Coat.
Here's a great example on three B-10 crews from the 11th Bomb Squadron in 1935. (Note enlisted crew were not authorized to wear A-2s at the time.)

Click to enlarge

Terrific photo! Got any more? The A-2s are terrific! The enlisted headgear is interesting, too! Thanks for posting it.



dean

 

[Dudleydoright]

Great photo

Those jackets all look pretty loose fitting to me.

I need to look at original photos with an eye to whether the wearer is a fighter pilot or a bomber crewman. There might well be a link between role of the man and fit of the jacket.

I'm a bomber man myself Practical, dogged and not at all flashy !!

Dave

 

[Fletch]

One man's kit

Maj. Charles H. Howard (1892-1936) was a prominent Army Air Corps officer of the inter-war period, a veteran of WW1 and an early authority on the use of radio in military aviation. He died in a crash in Texas in 1936; Howard AFB, Panama, is named for him.

Here is 1st Lieut. Howard as CO of the 11th Bomb Squadron at March Field, in about 1932-33.

His jacket is the Security 32-485, the first Army contract A-2, with the unique button-flap pockets.
Affixed is the 11th's whimsical "Jiggs" insignia, dating to WW1.

Jiggs was the title character in the comic Bringing Up Father, by George McManus, an 11th Squadron veteran of that war.

In October, 1932, Howard flew to 21,000' in his open-cockpit Curtiss B-2, carrying electroscopes to measure the effect of the electromagnetic field on cosmic rays for Dr. Robert Millikan, at left, of Caltech.

A B-2 inflight. Its service ceiling was normally 17,500'.

In July, 1934, Howard (by then a captain at age 42) was part of Lt. Col. Hap Arnold's historic flight to Alaska in ten Martin B-10s. Arnold is 4th from R at top, Howard (smiling broadly) 2nd from left at top.
The officers had new A-2s for the flight, so we get an idea of the "unbroken-in" look of the day.

The route of the flight, Washington—Fairbanks, 8,290 miles round trip.

 

[deluxestyling]

Thanks for posting those photos Fletch. I've got an ELC A-2 that's a little bigger than I'm really happy with but it's a closer fit than some of those guys so maybe it ain't so bad! Always better than too small I guess...

 

[deanglen]

Fletch, your pictures and info are very much appreciated. A sticky should be all yours on Army Air Corps between the wars.




dean

 

[Lt GUSTL]

Servus from Vienna,

thank you very much for the photos.
They are super, TOLL!
I love the trim cut of the shoulders on original jackets.
My Perry in size 44 has a closer fit than my ELC in size 42.

kindest regards

 

[Raymundo]

Back in the day, we all know that airmen were young and fairly slender. Hence, the military looking fit when wearing A-2 jackets. Some were lanky with long arms and torsos which added to the trim look when wearing their jackets. I think that the more jackets that were massed produced during the war the less form fitting they became because of higher production schedules and less QC. Maybe the fit became a little more loose compared to earlier models. Whatever the reason, it seems like more airmen preferred a looser fit. Myself, I am in the middle between military and loose fit.

Ray

 

[aswatland]

Back in the day, we all know that airmen were young and fairly slender. Hence, the military looking fit when wearing A-2 jackets. Some were lanky with long arms and torsos which added to the trim look when wearing their jackets. I think that the more jackets that were massed produced during the war the less form fitting they became because of higher production schedules and less QC. Maybe the fit became a little more loose compared to earlier models. Whatever the reason, it seems like more airmen preferred a looser fit. Myself, I am in the middle between military and loose fit.

Ray

I do not like the loose fit of many repro jackets-not the latest ones from ELC or GW, for example. I guess I prefer an A2 where there is room for movement, where the arms don't tunnel and where the epaulets don't hang over the shoulder! BTW altough most airmen were young, there were exceptions like Howard and Arnold shown above! Here's some pictures of my ideal fit-original Doniger.

And the same ones in black and white.

 

[Burnsie]

Andrew, if you've still got the 50 Cal from ELC, would you say that's a looser fit?

 

[aswatland]

Andrew, if you've still got the 50 Cal from ELC, would you say that's a looser fit?

Yes I still have the 50 Cal and its a standard size 42. Here's a pic so you can make up your mind!

 

[ethanedwards]

Sorry Andrew, couldn't resist............

 

[aswatland]

Thanks for aging the pic to look 65 years old! I wonder how I got that black eye?

 

[ethanedwards]

Black eye

Flak over Gelsenkirchen!

 

[imported_Flaming_Groovy]

Following up some old discussions about proper A2 fit I would like to add some more insights from my perspective to this discussion. In my eyes an A2 has never been a fashion item. It was ment to be purely functional which especially includes the function to move within them. It should neither bother you nor should it inhibit your movement. If you look on old fotos from WWII you can see that many crews had chosen pretty relaxed fitting A2 jackets even late during the war. Here are some examples from 1941 to 1944:

Lieutenant Dick Winters, 101st airborne, in 1942, wearing a relaxed fitting Dubow A2:

Here is a war photo of the crew of the famous witchcraft B24 bomber in December 1944 with pretty relaxed fitting A2s:

This is the graduation class of Sikeston Airschool, December 1941, with relaxed fitting jackets. Chapman from Goodwear Leather uses this even as example for proper A2 fit:


Johan

 

[BellyTank]

AND

And a lot of the "relaxed fit genuine WW2 guys" don't have any meat on their bones. Don't know if "relaxed" is a good word...


B
T

 

[H.Johnson]

I'm not a DNA expert, but from the point of view of someone who has worked in the leather clothing industry, I still have problems with PCR as a method of detection.

Bumping up my own (slightly off topic) posting just to show the problems of PCR (or DNA boost) as it is being called now*. A friend in Germany sent me news item relating to 'The Serial Killer of Saarbrucken'. More than thirty murders were committed in this region of Germany, all with different MOs, different type of victim etc. The fact that there was apparently nothing to relate them might have lead police to conclude that they were done by many different people, but forensic evidence (produced by PCR) showed that one DNA trace united them all. Clearly a fiendishly clever serial killer, covering his tracks by making his crimes seem different. Police announced condidently that the noose was tightening...soon he would be withing their grasp...then a check showed that the 'boosted' DNA belonged to a worker in the factory that produced the sampling kits!

So, if you want a DNA test on a WW2 jacket, you would have to be sure of eliminating the DNA of other animal skins it may have been stacked with during processing, the traces left from the by-products of other animals (both urine and feaces were used in tanning) and even by being hung next to jackets made from a different kind of leather.

* Last week the UK police were advised that PCR could be used to produce reliable evidence. Mmm.