The first steps in a journey - Jeans durability, comfort, fit and compromises

[Trouser Bark]

No Sir... and I'm not trying to disparage anyone's choice I just think that every once in a while inserting objective clarity into a concept is a good idea.

That it might have become a trend not to wash your pants is odd by any standard. As to hats, I don't often drop food on mine or roar a fart through it so although I understand your comparison it's not quite the same.

 

[cbez]

Whomever initially sold people on the concept that grime, scalp oils, sneeze droplets, and other bacterial colonies should be cleared from your hats only once every couple months was one hell of a salesman.

 

[Trouser Bark]

If you have a weak immune system just say that.

Do you also wash your hats frequently since you're getting scalp oil and skin bacteria on them?

http://[URL]https://www.ualberta.ca...higher if the jeans aren't washed regularly."

[/URL]

Nah man. No one in your periphery should need to have a robust immune system to survive your pants. Hats aren't similarly soiled but I understand your intent; I don't wash the interior of my shoes either. Regardless, voluntarily adopting a lower standard of hygiene in the name of fashion is an unique choice as dirty pants are and will remain a difficult to defend niche preference.

I have nothing against unique fabrics themselves; only the decision to promote them as better unclean.

 

[cbez]

Saying you're bringing 'objective clarity', while also acting like hats and shoes are magically exempt is silly.

I don't wash my pants much because they don't get noticeably dirty or smelly often. If I spill my dinner on them or whatever, I wash them.

If anything shoes need it the most because they're more humid with less airflow. Hats also get very 'unclean' with buildup of scalp oil. Objectively Id say both are substantially dirtier than pants unless maybe you work on a farm or something.

 

[PeterHuang]

You two went too far off from the OP’s topic, and it seems like neither of you can convince the other. There’s been too much unnecessary drama in the Lounge lately, so just accept the differences and focus back on the OP’s topic. Besides, I’ve been getting six or seven email notifications every time Cbez comments and then Trouser Bark replies hahaha

 

[The Lost Cowboy]

Saying you're bringing 'objective clarity', while also acting like hats and shoes are magically exempt is silly.

I don't wash my pants much because they don't get noticeably dirty or smelly often. If I spill my dinner on them or whatever, I wash them.

If anything shoes need it the most because they're more humid with less airflow. Hats also get very 'unclean' with buildup of scalp oil. Objectively Id say both are substantially dirtier than pants unless maybe you work on a farm or something.

Clean hair offers a natural protection for the interior of a hat. The sweatband keeps most of the skin oils and sweats away as well and when they collect on the sweatband they can be wiped off or are absorbed into the sweatband and away from the skin.

Besides, most guys who wear hats carefully distinguish between beaters and non-beaters. Do you have beater and non-beater jeans that you don't wash, or are all of the ones you don't wash non-beaters?

Trousers of all kinds are subjected to way more grime than most hats are. Trousers constantly rub against grime, sit in grim, have hands rubbed on them (even just accidentally), have food dropped on them and are sweated in way more than hats. We wear trousers all day - hats only a fraction of the time. Our trousers are often introduced to grime from the bottoms of our shoes.

There is truly no comparison between the dirt of jeans and that of hats - even beater hats.

Hats are more like leather jackets than they are like jeans.

 

[The Lost Cowboy]

You two went too far off from the OP’s topic, and it seems like neither of you can convince the other. There’s been too much unnecessary drama in the Lounge lately, so just accept the differences and focus back on the OP’s topic. Besides, I’ve been getting six or seven email notifications every time Cbez comments and then Trouser Bark replies hahaha

I responded before I saw this, but you can't control where a thread will go anyway.

Besides, it's an interesting comparison Cbez makes (jeans and hats) but it deserves interrogarion.

 

[Zoro]

You two went too far off from the OP’s topic, and it seems like neither of you can convince the other. There’s been too much unnecessary drama in the Lounge lately, so just accept the differences and focus back on the OP’s topic. Besides, I’ve been getting six or seven email notifications every time Cbez comments and then Trouser Bark replies hahaha

You can disable the email notifications for thread's you're watching (or even if you automatically watch threads) on these options:

 

[cbez]

absorbed into the sweatband and away from the skin.

And then the clean fairies spirit it away to Cleanlandia? No, it soaks into your hat and you get a buildup of sweat, oil, and dead skin.

The scalp is objectively a much oilier, sweatier place than your legs, especially when you consider jeans only actually contact the area around your knees unless you are going commando with no socks. Density of oil glands is actually highest on your scalp and forehead.

I can say objectively my shoes get an odor over time even with wool socks and need a clean, I've never had pants that did so. And I've had hat brims get visibly dirty with lipids and buildup and need a deep clean with good degreaser, never once seen that on pants either.

 

[The Lost Cowboy]

And then the clean fairies spirit it away to Cleanlandia? No, it soaks into your hat and you get a buildup of sweat, oil, and dead skin.

The scalp is objectively a much oilier, sweatier place than your legs, especially when you consider jeans only actually contact the area around your knees unless you are going commando with no socks. Density of oil glands is actually highest on your scalp and forehead.

I can say objectively my shoes get an odor over time even with wool socks and need a clean, I've never had pants that did so. And I've had hat brims get visibly dirty with lipids and buildup and need a deep clean with good degreaser, never once seen that on pants either.

Your comparing skin oils from the forehead to sweat from your inner thighs? That's not close to comparible in terms of disgusting.

I've got 50 hats here that prove what you're saying is inaccurate. They have NEVER been washed - not even the beaters. Yet most of them remain pristine even after 70 years. They don't stink, they don't feel oily, they don't present a dirty appearance either inside or out.

Here is the one I am wearing right now: from the 1950s. The forehead oils only serve to keep the sweatband supple.

On the other hand, I have two pair of work jeans that need to be washed after two wearings each because they smell already - yet I hardly even sweated in them in these cooler temps. They have dirt spots and also a discernible light oiliness to them.

So yeah, not even close to comparable.

 

[cbez]

I don't think 50 hats vs. 2 pants is a fair comparison. Wear one hat daily for a month and see how dirty it gets.

 

[The Lost Cowboy]

I can do far better than that. This one was worn everyday all day for seven months in Southeast Asia. Still no smell, no oil buildup, the liner was removed for the trip (and later replaced) so can't judge by that but the sweatband is clean, feels dry, and looks absolutely appealing to wear.

Or better yet, this one, which was my only hat for two full years - worn every day all day throughout Asia. Same thing except this one proves that generally they will fall apart before they require washing.

I'm not saying jeans aren't like that. Maybe it's the same thing. I washed my selves-edge jeans one time each and have never washed them again. But I don't wear them hard - the jeans I wear hard, I wash.

The hats I wear hard? Still fine so far as grime.

 

[PeterHuang]

I responded before I saw this, but you can't control where a thread will go anyway.

Besides, it's an interesting comparison Cbez makes (jeans and hats) but it deserves interrogarion.

Yes, and washing selvedge denim is a really interesting topic as long as people discuss it analytically instead of being satirical toward other perspectives haha.

Not sure how often Cbez washes his denim, but my jeans’ crotch really starts to smell like **** after two to three months without washing, even though I shower every day, sometimes twice a day during hot summer weeks so I believe that should be the case for all men. Besides, I’ve found that washing selvedge denim doesn’t actually affect the fade that much, so when people say washing ruins fading, I tend to think of it as a myth. So I am not sure what is the point of not washing selvedge denim

This pair is my 25oz Samurai, about a year and a half old with around eight or nine washes. If you look at photos of a brand-new one, you’ll see there isn’t much difference. (I wear this pair about twice a week.)

 

[The Lost Cowboy]

I don't think 50 hats vs. 2 pants is a fair comparison. Wear one hat daily for a month and see how dirty it gets.

Here is another one on top of the other two. This one has been around the world twice and worked a full year on my head in the semi. It is as clean and dry and non-oily and non-stinky as the day it was born. I mean, worn HARD.

(Edit: okay, it's not as clean as the day it was born but it's damn clean and most importantly, sanitary. That's the key word.)

But the jeans I wore trucking? Forget about it - I had to wash them on average after about four days of wear if I wanted to remain presentable to customers (including smell).

 

[cbez]

I have more experience with textile brims, so maybe leather are more conducive to a quick wipe down. And you do mention wiping them off which is kind of cleaning.

 

[The Lost Cowboy]

I have more experience with textile brims, so maybe leather are more conducive to a quick wipe down. And you do mention wiping them off which is kind of cleaning.

Yes if I sweat in them I will wipe them down. That's true. But that's literally it - no other cleaning.

Try a real fur felt hat with a leather sweatband sometime. Old school. You'll be surprised how clean they remain.

I'm outta here. Always good arguing with you C have a great evening.

 

[PeterHuang]

Hey everyone!

I didn't know on which thread to post this so instead decided to just open a thread.

A big part of the reason I got into leather is not only looks but also durability: I'm a sucker for buying once, crying once (if only we actually bought once, tho…). Similar story with jeans/denim, I wanted some pair(s) that would stand the test of time.

As I was poor and/or ignorant in my 20s, I thought all jeans were basically equal when it came to quality, or at worst somewhat equivalent. I would buy my jeans from fast fashion stores, particularly C&A as their jeans were cheap (10-20€) and fit me great. As I got a job, progressed in my career and was able to spend more money, I started trying other (mall) brands such as Jack&Jones, Superdry, Boss or Levis. As you see, I went progressively up in price rather than straight up. Out of these, you might get surprised, but my favorites were Superdry as they fit me best, but all of these brands as well as the cheap fast fashion ones lasted the same, somewhere between one and two years until they all broke around the crotch/groin, so why would I pay more for brands when fast fashion offered the same? Sometimes I would have two pairs that I really liked, other times I would have a pair that I really liked (and broke) while my other pairs I didn't like as much and it would then kick in the quest to replace those I really liked.

All of this got halted during covid as obviously I wasn't going out as much. The pandemic also enabled working from home, thus I do not leave the house for half the day every day ever since, this meaning the time durability for my jeans increased to around 3 years (or so I would estimate). Around 2 years ago, as the at-the-time-favorite-pair broke, I decided to start the experiment: Let's buy a pair of expensive mall jeans and also a pair of far more expensive Japanese raw denim.

There's also a catch: I like slim fitting jeans. I got somewhat thick legs, so it might sound counterintuitive that I like them slim fitting (not skinny, hate the look and the feel). Most raw denim are more relaxed fitting, seemingly even the ones stated as tapered or even slim… But that's a problem I have in general. The way the jeans fit most of the models on online stores is different than how they fit me as models usually have skinnier legs than me. Anyway, what I'm getting at is that I was not ready to totally give up the slim look and that also implied that I wanted to still have a percentage of elastane for comfort and a more progressive change (aka I was not going to dive right into the deep end of 25oz raw denim).

I went for a pair of Calvin Klein jeans as they were on sale and I liked how they fit me as a replacement of the pair that had just broken (can't even remember the brand), with these CK being 99% cotton, 1% elastane. For the Japanese denim, I contacted Redcast Heritage who patiently helped me with my first raw denim pair and sizing recommendations, so I bought a pair of Oni 122S-BE 15oz Relax Tapered jeans, 98% cotton, 2% elastane.

The CK jeans were very comfortable since the beginning. The Oni were hell, I went down in size as per recommendations and simply buttoning them up was an absolute nightmare. I trusted Redcast Heritage, who told me they would stretch in a couple days and to wear them at home. Indeed, they stretched and the hell became just a bearable purgatory. I'll be honest: This was a power through for the sake of empirical research. And, eventually, they did stretch enough that buttoning them up became easy and stopped being one of Hercules' labours.

It's a year and a half later. As mentioned, I still work fully remote so I don't wear my clothes as often and as long as I did pre-pandemic. From a purely comfort perspective, I would wear the CK jeans without a doubt. From an aesthetic perspective, I would wear the Oni (and they have still not developed any of the fades, although it's not like I consider fades particularly aesthetically enhancing nor detrimental). If I had to wear only one pair for years, I would choose the Oni but simply because I don't think the CK will last enough to be worn for much longer.

In a further break down of the above, I would say I've worn the CK pair about twice as much as the Oni. Laziness and the desire for comfort can take the best out of me and they are simply comfier. With this in mind, it might not be a fair comparison as one has seen far more use despite having been bought at around the some time, but it is still proper evidence and data as it's not like I've babied them and had them as wardrobe kings. The Oni today feel sturdy, as new, not a hassle to put on and off, comfortable but still somewhat stiff and I suspect this is a stiffness baseline that is not going to go away (at least not in the near future).

The CK instead feel as if I was wearing nothing at all (Nothing at all… Nothing at all… Nothing at all…) but as I mentioned before, I do not expect them to last long. They were somewhatish stiffish when new but now they just feel flimsy. I even got a hole near a pocket, caused by my phone case. I've had small holes caused by keys, but by my phone? That's a new one! Also the edges of the front pockets are starting to peel on a couple areas, also a new one for me. Funny enough, I do have a small, almost unperceivable fade likely also from my phone's edge on the Oni pair. Photos below:

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CK pair: Both pics above of the hole made by my phone, big enough to comfortably fit a fountain pen through it​

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CK pair: Damage around the edges of the left pocket
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CK pair: Damage around the edges of the right pocket​

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Oni pair: Almost unnoticeable fading where the CK pair has the whole (only noticeable in good light and proper inspection)​

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Oni pair: Almost unnoticeable fading around the left pocket edges (only noticeable in good light and proper inspection)​

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Oni pair: Almost unnoticeable fading around the right pocket edges (only noticeable in good light and proper inspection)​

All in all, I think this is pretty much all I have. For many this would read as "look, that horse finally made it to the finish line!", but this is a journey that I've decided to document for two reasons:

The first one is that I haven't seen anyone really taking my approach. Everyone I've come through were either on "Raw denim is the way to go, I was blind and now I see, love at first sight" or "Raw denim is a **** to charge you 5x the price of any random mall jeans that are as good". On the price topic, I am still troubled/undecided on whether you'll spend the same money or not on several mall pairs that'll eventually last as long as a single pair of raw denim, but I still see things going for one or the other and I certainly do not see raw denim as something that should be the standard for everyone.

The second reason is that while I'm not fully sold on raw denim, I'm sold enough that I'm curious to get a second pair from some different brand, different style, 100% cotton, different weight, perhaps already used, perhaps custom (!). Because buy once cry once, amirite!? Anyway, this means I've taken enough conclusions to consider my journey as barely just started rather than already having finished abruptly.

On to the next one! Thanks for reading

Regarding the fit, momotaro might be what you are looking for. It’s slim fit and very supple since they use Zimbabwe cotton (and believe me, I have big thighs from squat too lol). Some pics:

 

[Harris HTM]

Heavier denim tends to wear faster because the thick fabric causes more abrasion when it folds and rubs.

This is also my experience with my 25oz IH.

 

[cbez]

That's weird. my iron heart has been my slowest wearing by far and I've worn them almost daily for a year and a half.

The inner thighs which are like my main wear area show next to no wear.

 

[Harris HTM]

That's weird. my iron heart has been my slowest wearing by far and I've worn them almost daily for a year and a half.

The inner thighs which are like my main wear area show next to no wear.

I got this 25oz deliberately on a relaxed fit; I had a tight fit 21oz previously tha literally bled my knees when new. Due to the wide thigh measurement it seems the fabric at the thighs rub against eachother.