Weapons in the Movies

[BlueTrain]

Tony Curtis!!!!!!!

 

[Highlander]

InStainedWretch, that's really cool info. Probably most about Tony Curtis whom I'd never have guessed to be a good fencer. I've taken a few fencing lessons, but alas it was too far away to really enjoy the time it required and to allow for the practice that is necessary. It truly is an art and you may think you can handle a German Side Sword or a Rapier, UNTIL someone who can in less than three seconds sticks you... And that's the way it happens... Thanks for the great info!!!!

 

[Highlander]

Tom Horn with an 1876 Winchester. You wouldn't think it was that much bigger than the '73 but it is.

 

[Highlander]

Stearman, THE SAND PEBBLES, such a great (albeit melancholy) movie about a guy that just wants to do a good job, and be left alone, but society won't let him. And the BAR, what a great rifle (as long as you don't have to carry it more than 100 yards). I remember seeing that movie when it first came out, I would have been maybe 12??? But it came out in 1966, so I must have seen it a few years after it came out , maybe 68 or 69... Great movie!

 

[Inkstainedwretch]

If you want to see Tony Curtis fence, see his fight with Ross Martin in "The Great Race"(1965). It's a bit slapstick but you see Curtis in top form.

 

[Worf]

Another thing that bothers me... I know they probably had limited knowledge of what a Type VII U-boat looked like inside but jeeze louise couldn't they have done a little research. Just saw "Action in the North Atlantic" with Bogey and Raymond Massey... The insides of those U-boats looked like ball rooms. You could roller skate in em.

Worf

 

[Highlander]

InStainedWretch, when I saw your post about Curtis being a fencer that scene did come to mind It's been along time since I've seen that movie, but it's one of my favorites for a rainy Sunday when there is nothing else you can do..

And Worf, you are right about the PT Boats, and SUBMARINES too, There's NO EXTRA room at all in Subs.

 

[Fading Fast]

InStainedWretch, when I saw your post about Curtis being a fencer that scene did come to mind It's been along time since I've seen that movie, but it's one of my favorites for a rainy Sunday when there is nothing else you can do..

And Worf, you are right about the PT Boats, and SUBMARINES too, There's NO EXTRA room at all in Subs.

One viewing of the (I've read) reasonably accurate "Das Boot" would have educated all those film makers - you can feel the claustrophobia, the heat, the tightness of those era subs in that movie.

 

[EngProf]

Tom Horn with an 1876 Winchester. You wouldn't think it was that much bigger than the '73 but it is.

You are 100% correct. I have a Uberti 1876 Winchester rifle in .45-60 and it makes an 1873 seem like a toy.

 

[BlueTrain]

Something I have really only noticed in still photos from old Westerns, mainly B-movies, is that while not necessarily authentic, the holsters and other leather goods like saddles were sometimes clearly well-used. The so-called Hollywood holster has been around longer than you think but they weren't used by working cowboys before WWI, nor did working cowboys invariably carry a Colt S.A.A. like in the movies. Nevertheless, many holsters appear to be fairly correct historically. Sometimes the belts look like they were made for slimmer men, too.

I also find it interesting that Colt S.A.A. revolvers frequently show up in non-Western movies, usually in some kind of adventure movie. One in particular that I enjoy watching is the serial "Tarzan and the Green Goddess," also referred to as the New Adventures of Tarzan (one is a condensed movie version). Two of the characters carry Colt single action revolvers. There is one scene where the good guys are being chased by a mob of natives in Guatemala, where the movie was filmed, and the man with the revolver is shown fumbling with his gun, frantically trying to reload. Maybe the IPSC crowd is onto something after all.

 

[MikeKardec]

In older movies, no matter what the time frame, the moves were taken from Olympic-style fencing. That's because the fight arrangers were fencing masters, often from the Hollywood Atlhetic Club. Even when the weapons were 18th century smallswords, as in "Scaramouche," the moves were often saber moves. This is because the wide, sweeping cuts are easier for the audience to follow, unlike the tiny, precise thrusts of foil or epee. To see a realistic smallsword fight, watch the second duel in Ridley Scott's "The Duellists." After a bit of feeling out, the two come together, there is a flurry of thrust and parry that is too fast to see, then one of the fighters staggers off and collapses. Once engaged, the fight lasts no more than a second or two. This is very realistic.

A lot of those guys trained with Ralph Faulkner an Olympian and stuntman. I studied with him briefly as a high school kid in the 1970s. He was teaching propped on a crutch and you still couldn't touch him. The guy was ancient but when he "beat" your blade (a tight, circular, movement with the fingers and a tiny amount of wrist) he could stun your whole arm. His Falcon Studios was the home of a pretty wild crowd, early SCA types and the like.

One viewing of the (I've read) reasonably accurate "Das Boot" would have educated all those film makers - you can feel the claustrophobia, the heat, the tightness of those era subs in that movie.

Das Boot was shot on a nearly identical reproduction of a Type VII. Accuracy was held down to most of the materials used ie. real steel and even Soviet produced bakelite for some of the knobs and radio cases. Several American directors dropped out when the saw how cramped the sets were even with "wild" (removable) walls. The film (actually a sort of Mini Series for German TV recut into a film for foreign audiences) was shot on 16mm using mostly the natural light from the "practical" fixtures on the sets and a pair of fiber multi strand optic units that could be hidden in the plumbing overhead. I believe they never removed the wild walls. It's claustrophobic because it was REALLY claustrophobic!

Something I have really only noticed in still photos from old Westerns, mainly B-movies, is that while not necessarily authentic, the holsters and other leather goods like saddles were sometimes clearly well-used. The so-called Hollywood holster has been around longer than you think but they weren't used by working cowboys before WWI, nor did working cowboys invariably carry a Colt S.A.A. like in the movies. Nevertheless, many holsters appear to be fairly correct historically. Sometimes the belts look like they were made for slimmer men, too.

One of the things you rarely get a feeling for in movies why people wore guns certain ways. Cross draw holsters were seen a lot in the early days because until well into the 1870s there were few short barreled large caliber handguns. Drawing a pistol as long as your forearm from a strong side holster at belt height (the only kind of holster that worked well on horseback) was nearly impossible. Cross draw is MUCH easier. I think the military also used cross draw holsters and that had something to do with saber use but I could be wrong ... anyway it's possible that some ex-military guys got used to it. In the late Western period leather hip pocket liners were pretty popular, once cartridge revolvers with shorter barrels became more available in the 1880s and '90s.

The fast draw which, in my opinion, is vastly over done in all Western entertainments, wasn't so important that having a pistol right next to your hand was worth how in the way it tends to get as well as the risk of losing your weapon. Real "fast draws" were the sort of person who decided to resort to using a firearm first, realizing that a fist fight or a verbal argument was actually a gun fight or that they were suddenly in the presence of enemies or MUCH MORE LIKELY were getting dragged by a horse the were bucked off of or charged by a steer. In any of those cases continuing to have a gun is more important than getting it out fast. Wearing it "high and tight" was more likely to allow you to retain it in the midst of violent physical activity.

All that said, as western fashion changed, actually as specifically western fashion developed from cobbled together ideas to actual frontier oriented products, those buscadero rigs did show up and by the '20s seemed pretty popular. I also think they may have had to wait for westerners to get wealthier. I've got this theory that you didn't see any of the fancy western gear until the economics for mass production (even by individual artisans) and distribution (stores and catalogs/post offices) hit a certain level ... and that mean a threshold of population density and better than subsistence level income.

 

[Benzadmiral]

I also find it interesting that Colt S.A.A. revolvers frequently show up in non-Western movies, usually in some kind of adventure movie. . . .

A peculiar one is the Man from U.N.C.L.E. episode "The Hong Kong Shilling Affair." The villain Mr. Cleveland, played by a smilingly despicable Gavin MacLeod (very unlike his cuddly roles as Capt. Steubing and witty news writer Murray), has a Colt Single Action Army as his sidearm.

 

[BlueTrain]

In real life, swords were virtually always carried on the left side, at least the long ones were. So when revolvers began to be carried in belt holsters they were naturally carried on the right side. The army used reverse draw holsters from the 1950s down to the 1940s. In fact, I have a photo of my father wearing one like that when he was in the army. Unfortunately I have no way to post it. Some "regular" holsters were also used by the army beginning in WWI. They all had flaps. One photo I recall of a black cavalry unit somewhere in the west shows everyone with such holsters and with sabers prominently displayed, too, if I remember correctly (I may be combining photos in my mind). But most of the soldiers had tucked the flap back behind the belt and some were wearing the revolver butt to the rear. The revolvers were Colt .38 double actions.

Aside from the fact that the Colt Single Action was slow to reload and could really only safely be carried with five shots, it would still have been a good choice at the time, which is presumably why it stayed in production until WWII. Colt DA revolvers were supposed to only be loaded with five shots, too, according to the army manual, until after the positive safety feature came out. I've owned examples of all those revolvers but not really early production models.

 

[Benzadmiral]

Q, since you folks are knowledgeable about handguns. The Colt Army 1860 model, which (I've read) was the most widely used revolver in the Civil War, used paper cartridges, or the regular cap-and-ball method of loading. Now I've read also that many of these c & b revolvers were converted to use metallic cartridges later, when those became available -- the Walker Colt, for example. Was that true also of the Army 1860? Was it possible for a gunsmith to do?

 

[BlueTrain]

I'm not all that knowledgeable. But not only were some converted, there were so-called transitional models produced for a few years. They had the open top frame but were actually manufactured to use metallic cartridges. But I don't know what it would have taken to convert them. The hammer would have to be altered and presumably a new cylinder provided. Colt produced a lot of other models during that relative short period of history, few of which have ever been reproduced. Needless to say, Colt had lots of competition, too, not the least of which was Smith & Wesson. Many of the cheaper revolvers and single-shot pocket pistols are virtually forgotten today, known only to us gun nuts.

The Colt Navy revolvers were produced in greater numbers than the 1860 Army revolver and there were almost more pocket models (.31 and .36 calibers) manufactured than the other two put together. According to one source, fewer than 20,000 of the older Dragoon models were made. In comparison, about 360,000 Single Action Army models were produced from 1873 thorough 1940 when production was discontinued. You almost never see the pocket models or the other lesser known Colt revolvers in the movies but I think a Dragoon model showed up in True Grit. But every one of those Single Action Army revolvers in the old cowboy movies in the 1930s and 1940s were original pre-war Colt revolvers. Beware of imitations and patent infringements.

 

[EngProf]

There were several systems for converting percussion Colts to cartridge operation. They were usually named after the patent holders, and two that come to mind are the Theuer system and the later Richards-Mason.
Colt had a lot of percussion guns and parts on hand so they sold factory cartridge conversions to the public until parts ran out. It involved modifying some parts and deleting others.

As for private conversions, it's just a matter of machine-work, so a good gunsmith could make a conversion, given enough time and effort.

"Beware of imitations and patent infringements."
I used to date a patent attorney and I tried to get her to a write a book called "The Patents Which Won the West".
Colt had the original patents on use of the revolving cylinder, thus preventing Smith and Wesson from producing revolvers until the Colt patents ran out in the 1850's. At that time S&W had bought the patents of Rollin White for loading cartridges into a through-bored cylinder from the rear.
Therefore, Colt could not make revolvers with through-bored cylinders until the S&W patents ran out in the early 1870's.
The fact that the SAA is the "Model of 1873" is directly connected to the patent system and its patent durations.

In case you want one, modern replicas of cartridge-conversions, 1872 "open-tops", and other similar Colts are available at reasonable prices (as gun prices go).

 

[BlueTrain]

For a while, Colt reintroduced a line of their older percussion revolvers and picked up the serial numbering where it left off in the 1860s or 1870s. That was probably decades ago and I never saw one in a store. For that matter, there are lots of gun models that I've never seen new in a store. I once owned, however, a S&W Model 39 in the original box with all the papers and the original price tag from a store in Tyson's Corner Mall in Virginia. No, I don't wish I still had it.

 

[Stearmen]

Yes cavalry holsters were worn on the right hip so the wearer could draw his pistol with his left hand and have the saber in his right. By the end of the American Civil War, the saber had become almost useless, very few men used them, since repeating pistols and rifles had become much more wide spread. One of the Confederate Cavalry Generals tried to surrender his sword, but it was rusted solid, the Union officer told him he could keep it! When Custer lead the 7th Cavalry into The Battle Of The Greasy Grass, (the last stand) all but one man had left their swords back at the Powder River depot. If you want to see a lot of really interesting holsters, just look up Cavalry during the Plains Indian Wars! The flap was cut back or completely away for obvious reasons.

 

[MikeKardec]

Q, since you folks are knowledgeable about handguns. The Colt Army 1860 model, which (I've read) was the most widely used revolver in the Civil War, used paper cartridges, or the regular cap-and-ball method of loading. Now I've read also that many of these c & b revolvers were converted to use metallic cartridges later, when those became available -- the Walker Colt, for example. Was that true also of the Army 1860? Was it possible for a gunsmith to do?

Some of these other guys just contributed useful bits and all, I believe, are correct but here is what I think is the basic situation: EngProf nailed it -- A company named Rollin/White patented a revolver cylinder that was drilled all the way through, thus enabling it to use cartridges. This might have been before the Civil War and they made only a few pistols in anything like a serious caliber. Smith and Wesson bought them, or the patent, and began manufacturing their top break heavy caliber guns. Legend has it that Buffalo Bill used his early model S&W to kill Bison from horseback while hunting with Grand Duke Alexis of Russia. This lead S&W to a Russian military contract in the late 1860s that was so large it took years to fill and they lost out on many North American sales, ceding the frontier and military markets to a large extent to Colt.

Colt could not produce an "in house" drilled through cylinder cartridge revolver until S&Ws patent ran out ... thus they would finish off pistols like the 1860 Army and then send it out to a gunsmith for a conversion. Or the customer could have the conversion done on their own. These converted pistols may not have been all that common, a lot of people liked the cap and ball offerings just as well and in those days there was such a hodge podge of calibers and ignition systems for cartridge guns that cap and ball was a good way to not get caught by a rapidly shifting market. Cap and ball guns didn't really begin to disappear from the scene until the 1910 era and lasted among poorer people well into the '20s or longer.

I've never heard of a cartridge conversion for anything as early as a Walker or Dragoon Colt, these pistols are HUGE and meant to be carried in pommel holsters rather than on the belt. They were really more of a stockless carbine. Though the best (strongest) Cap and Ball revolver may have been the Remington, Colt Armies are very elegant and tend to point a touch better, though the sights suck. With their open design the Colt shed busted caps more easily than the Remington and so may have been a bit more reliable.

The Colt SAA cartridge revolver we all know and love was stouter because of the solid top strap than the break top S&Ws and could shoot heavier ammo like the 44-40. The S&W single actions were highly accurate and quick to reload but could not be shot as rapidly because of the grip design, small hammer spur size and the fact that you had to COMPLETELY let off the trigger between shots to allow it to reset.

Now that I'm thinking about it I believe that the cylinder rotation direction and the loading gate position on the Colt may have been designed for using the revolver in the left hand to keep the right available for the saber ... it does seem to be set up to be loaded by the right hand while being held in the left. Suddenly I think I might have answered my own question: Both saber and revolver were cross draw because of their length and the fact that the Saber was definitely a strong hand weapon. Of course it is not difficult to back-hand-twist draw a gun with the butt forward AND doing so allows you to draw a longer barrel just to sweeten the pot ... don't try this at home as the muzzle crosses your body as you are pulling the hammer back!

The Colt design, going all the way back to the Walker and possibly even the Patterson, had a brilliant "passive cocking" design; the base of the grip is wider than the top so as the gun recoils it flips back in your hand. You then just drape your thumb over the big hammer spur and allow the weight of the barrel to rotate the muzzle downward as you readjust your grip. It's really a fantastic design and no other manufacturer has ever quite done it as well when the weren't copying the gun exactly. For a guy with big hands the 1860 Army is by far the best with the biggest grips, the SAA had a more Navy size grip.

The best pistol of the early cartridge era was likely the Merwin and Hulbert. I've handled a couple; they are exquisitely built and the mechanism is ingenious. The Rolls Royce of black power cartridge era pistols.

 

[Edward]

I've got a Rambo knock off it's an Explorer RAMII 21-033. Got it back when "First Blood" debuted. It's pretty solid, wouldn't use it for hunting and such, but it's a conversation piece. Probably get one for under $40.00.

It's got fishing line and a hook in the plastic bag and under the removable pommel is a substandard compass, so don't get lost if you have this knife. It's best use is as a wall or drawer decoration.

Heh, I remember cheapo "Rambo knives" being popular when I was in the Scouts. I was only allowed to carry a small penknife; I wanted a big sheather badly. Then for years I had multi-blades and multi-tools.... these days I've come full circle, preferring a small bladed pocket knife with no real features other than a decent blade. Just a shame our (UK) general-carry laws preclude locked blades - I think they're much safer.