The Occult, are you a believer?

[HoosierDaddy]

Perhaps we are actually discussing two different subjects. Educating oneself for better progressive awareness of spiritual things..and considering certain junctures or realizations in that learning as "awakenings"....rather than an intense spiritual "Happening" or "Awakening" that unlocks a whole new perspective and direction.
HD

 

[Creeping Past]

I'm referring to the former. However, I would say that the latter can be a precursor to that more aware state... and it certainly shouldn't be considered an end in itself.

 

[stephen1965]

Are you saying that certain universal concepts are guarded over time by some permanent cadre, so to speak?

Yes pretty much... Although I don't think that the School itself is permanent but that the knowledge is. Or to put it another way, the 'Work' is permanent. IMO schools come and go and change their approach, are more or less secret depending on the society within which they are operating. Some schools are said to have consisted of those who designed and built the cathedrals of Chartres and Notre Dame de Paris. Others say that the the pre-Raphaelite movement was a school. IMO Lewis Carrol (who was close to them) was involved in esoteric systems. It wouldn't surprise me too much if Walt Whitman and the transcendentalists were aligned to a school. Who knows? The 'Work' or the system of knowledge must be intact or 'permanent' but it's outer face must be flexible I would imagine. So, there are schools of dervishes but also schools of buddhist monks and schools of christian monks etc etc. Their outer (or exoteric) part changes but not their inner work. That must always be.

Also schools might operate at different levels. Some for men with a physical bent some with intellectual beginnings. The map would be the same but the level of difficulty and the starting point might differ.

 

[stephen1965]

My conclusion became that there can be many "Awakenings'...leading to bits and pieces of what is actually spiritually true....but then there can also be experienced an awakening that opens it all up...no matter your position or role on the stage. Like most things really worthwhile..it is releasing that ego of self...that ingrained self control that it should always be in our hands.... Doesn't really matter with the awareness...The assurance is really there for anyone and everyone. No exceptions.
HD

Yeah, I think I agree that there are many steps or small awakenings and also big realizations or awakenings too. And yes, I agree that 'awareness' is assuring. I'm not sure about the awareness being for everyone though. It's not that I'm being judgemental about a man's potential but that Nature just isn't handing out awareness to all. One has to gather it it while he may. I'm not totally sure if that's what you meant though so do forgive me if I'm missing your point.
P.S. Nice avatar by the way. Not sure if I agree with all the politics but he was so good in 'The Fountainhead'.

When given two choices, I'll generally go for the third one.

Another (yes I know ) point about schools is, I would contend that 'School', or the 'Work' or esoteric schools can't really be another side of the coin to anything. It might seem that way, I agree but esoteric schools IMO can be historic (and no longer extant), but traces of their methods can be found in exoteric religious procedures (which IMO are sometimes just unknowing repetition). Or Schools can be alive without any link to religion whatsoever.

 

[HoosierDaddy]

Yeah, I think I agree that there are many steps or small awakenings and also big realizations or awakenings too. And yes, I agree that 'awareness' is assuring. I'm not sure about the awareness being for everyone though. It's not that I'm being judgemental about a man's potential but that Nature just isn't handing out awareness to all. One has to gather it it while he may. I'm not totally sure if that's what you meant though so do forgive me if I'm missing your point.
P.S. Nice avatar by the way. Not sure if I agree with all the politics but he was so good in 'The Fountainhead'.

Where we may be in disagreement is concerning the source of spiritual awareness. The essence,meaning,and reason of spiritual truth plus our connection and relationship to it. Also what separates us from it.
In my view...it doesn't take special men or groups to experience the revelation of spiritual awareness. Doesn't take higher education...trained particular abilities or how accomplished one may be. However..it does take an earnest desire to know. Then a willingness to give-in to what really is beyond our control or even present reasoning. Subjecting and allowing ourselves to submit to the possibility of a greater source. Conceding to truth...which is only hidden...by each one of us. Therefore it surely is available to all of us. I find from my experience...that enlightment or unlocking awareness to truth is a supernatural occurance that can have absolutely no need for previously aquired knowledge. What one then does with that awareness,of course,is up to them. That is when the learning begins.
The mystic have great allure when questioning and searching for truth..but I have found...the source for truth is closer to home.
HD

 

[Foofoogal]

Luke 18:17 (King James Version)

17Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.
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When I see this verse in the Bible I think of a mother holding her child standing up and rocking the baby.
The child has no fear the mother will drop it and just totally trust the mother.
Totally trusting the heavenly Father like little children is what Jesus stated. By trusting one builds a relationship over time with the Father and as with long term relationships secrets are shared and understanding comes naturally. Like a very long marriage the love and faith builds and just is.
------------------
Matthew 6:33 (King James Version)

33But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

 

[stephen1965]

Where we may be in disagreement is concerning the source of spiritual awareness. The essence,meaning,and reason of spiritual truth plus our connection and relationship to it. Also what separates us from it.
In my view...it doesn't take special men or groups to experience the revelation of spiritual awareness. Doesn't take higher education...trained particular abilities or how accomplished one may be. However..it does take an earnest desire to know. Then a willingness to give-in to what really is beyond our control or even present reasoning. Subjecting and allowing ourselves to submit to the possibility of a greater source. Conceding to truth...which is only hidden...by each one of us. Therefore it surely is available to all of us. I find from my experience...that enlightment or unlocking awareness to truth is a supernatural occurance that can have absolutely no need for previously aquired knowledge. What one then does with that awareness,of course,is up to them. That is when the learning begins.
The mystic have great allure when questioning and searching for truth..but I have found...the source for truth is closer to home.
HD

What you say seems to me to have a lot to it. I don't have that many qualms with it really. My view is that yes ok it is available to us all but that we don't all make ourselves available to it. Why not? Because we either don't have the preparation or the desire. Most people never have this desire or the desire wanes before they have got anything permanent.

Another thing one might say is, looking for spiritual enlightenment without guidance (which to me means school influence if we are to accept there is an esoteric circle), is like looking to find money in the street or hoping food will appear without learning to set traps to catch game or without learning how to cook or without going to restaurants. ie it's possible but less likely to be successful or sustained.
So while I'm not disputing the truth of your experiences or what you're saying I think the whole idea of a spiritual path is connected with 'esoteric school'. To accept the idea of schools existing here and now, I would suppose a man would have to make a very serious choice about what he wanted.

 

[HoosierDaddy]

What you say seems to me to have a lot to it. I don't have that many qualms with it really. My view is that yes ok it is available to us all but that we don't all make ourselves available to it. Why not? Because we either don't have the preparation or the desire. Most people never have this desire or the desire wanes before they have got anything permanent.

Another thing one might say is, looking for spiritual enlightenment without guidance (which to me means school influence if we are to accept there is an esoteric circle), is like looking to find money in the street or hoping food will appear without learning to set traps to catch game or without learning how to cook or without going to restaurants. ie it's possible but less likely to be successful or sustained.
So while I'm not disputing the truth of your experiences or what you're saying I think the whole idea of a spiritual path is connected with 'esoteric school'. To accept the idea of schools existing here and now, I would suppose a man would have to make a very serious choice about what he wanted.

Then again..perhaps many do indeed have great desire for truth. However...the requirements that some have erroneously added to that journey confuse the matter...complicate an "awakening"...or continually defuse any permanence of newly found wisdom. The somewhat crude saying comes to mind..."Keep it simple..Stupid!"...because that's what open the door for me.
Where we may differ...is the idea of an initial "awakening" that unlocks the seemingly hidden or secret truths for the average Joe. From my perspective..then one may learn how to cook with it hopefully from Chefs, who have tasted it as well,with no desire to season that food artificially. The spiritual realization does offer confidence to discern contradiction,in my experience,but again,what one continually decides to do with that is up to them.
The guidence that I find is from others of like experience...the spiritual source of the enlightenment,and actually,it can be a very personal connection.
HD

 

[stephen1965]

Then again..perhaps many do indeed have great desire for truth. However...the requirements that some have erroneously added to that journey confuse the matter...complicate an "awakening"...or continually defuse any permanence of newly found wisdom. The somewhat crude saying comes to mind..."Keep it simple..Stupid!"...because that's what open the door for me.
Where we may differ...is the idea of an initial "awakening" that unlocks the seemingly hidden or secret truths for the average Joe. From my perspective..then one may learn how to cook with it hopefully from Chefs, who have tasted it as well,with no desire to season that food artificially. The spiritual realization does offer confidence to discern contradiction,in my experience,but again,what one continually decides to do with that is up to them.
The guidence that I find is from others of like experience...the spiritual source of the enlightenment,and actually,it can be a very personal connection.
HD

Fair enough. We could quibble about what constitutes 'many' or 'few'. I say 'not many' because I think there seems to be a law which doesn't allow too many people to wake up at once. The analogy which works for me here is that we can't all break out of prison at once without making ourselves too conspicuous/noticeable. I suppose that's how I see it really, we are somewhat imprisoned and it takes great efforts to escape without getting caught again. I don't regard this as an imposed 'erroneous requirement' though. Progress/becoming free must depend on ability to understand. The 'keep it simple' makes sense as one can get tangled in intellectually yet still, knowledge can continue indefinitely. And I would say also that there is 'hidden store of knowledge' of all sorts of subjects which seem to have come from esoteric schools throughout history. It would seem to me to be worth maintaining a far as possible a balance between 'knowledge' and 'being' (as I said in an earlier post).

As for where you think we differ. I can't discern much difference. A man/average Joe of any background has a few realizations or one big one. He 'tastes' something new as it were. He then tries to find a 'Chef school' ...

What's really interesting (to me at least) is what each of us would see the Chef school to be. I agree, as you say that it would be a very personal connection.

 

[John in Covina]

So what do you know or have heard of the Occult? Do you believe its real or just in the mind of the believer? Also do you believe it to be good or evil?

*******
From what I know: As a Christian, I am part of those that confess that I believe in the Visible and the Invisible. This means that I believe there are both the physical world and a spiritual world.

Occultism and those that practice it may believe that in the spritual realm they may make use of the power or powers that flow thru that realm. From the understanding that I have is the power is either good as that which comes from God or evil that which comes from Satan. Satan is the father of all lies, but he mixes truth with lies and ensnares the unwary.

The problem is that many are believing that they are using a "gift from God" but are unwittingly are a puppet for the side of evil. This is why in the new testament there are warnings as to avoid prognostication and the use of magic. Is it real- yes -but many people don't realize from whence their powers are coming from and that is the danger.

 

[HoosierDaddy]

Good post,John
Seems to me that it isn't easy determining what it's real or only just seemingly real concerning the occult. It can seem very attractive to some because of the mystery. Many hope for something miraculous. When some of it is revealed as clever stunt...it can be a let down. On the other hand if it is a vivid experience that seams so real..and left unexplainable..the occurance can become quite enticing. Too in your face realistic...brings the thrill of fear.
In my opinion...real or not...it runs on deception. Such as...are you really talking to the dead? In a seance something or someone is doing the talking. Is it really a dead relative that knows personal things?...or is it something or someone else that has the ability to know as well? Is an aparation or ghostly figure the walking dead?..or something else to make it seem as though the dead are still around and wandering ?
The occult can lead one to believe that what you see or hear is indeed what you want it to be. Could the occult only be a distraction...and from what? Truth? Possibly something to consider.
HD

 

[HungaryTom]

Magick:


Is Enochian Magick dangerous?
http://www.llewellynencyclopedia.com/article/27
http://gleamingsfromthedawn.blogspot.com/2007/12/is-enochian-magic-dangerous.html

Enochian magick- the most powerful magical practice in the Western world. John Dee is regraded as paramount magician and his communication with Angels as theurgy i.e. the highest form of 'white' magic. Kelley was his collaborant and his medium. The other names are the 'angels' in the following dialogues.

http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.ListAll&friendId=289291406

QUOTE
The Nature of the Apocalypse


It has always been generally assumed that the apocalypse is in the
hands of the angels of wrath, to be visited upon the world at the
pleasure of God, at a moment preordained from the beginning of
creation. In the veiled teachings of the Enochian angels this is not
true. The gates of the Watchtowers can only be unlocked from the
inside. The angels of wrath cannot initiate the apocalypse even if
they wish to do so. This is suggested by an exchange between Dee and
the angel Ave:

Dee - As for the form of our Petition or Invitation of the
good Angels, what sort should it be of?
Ave - A short and brief speech.
Dee - We beseech you to give us an example: we would have a
confidence, it should be of more effect.
Ave - I may not do so.
Kelley - And why?
Ave - Invocation proceedeth of the good will of man, and of
the heat and fervency of the spirit: And therefore is prayer of such
effect with God.
Dee - We beseech you, shall we use one form to all?
Ave - Every one, after a divers form.
Dee - If the minde do dictate or prompt a divers form, you
mean.
Ave - I know not: for I dwell not in the soul of man. (8)

Spiritual beings must be evoked into our reality by human beings. We
must open the gates and admit the servants of Coronzon ourselves.
Evocation and invocation are not a part of the business of angels,
but of humans. That is why the angels needed to go through the
elaborate ruse of conveying the system of Enochian magic, with the
Keys and the Great Table of the Watchtowers, to Dee. If the
apocalypse is to take place, and if it is necessary for human beings
to open the gates of the Watchtowers before it can take place, the
angels first had to instruct a man in the correct method for opening
the gates.

It is evident that Dee was to be restrained from opening the gates of
the Watchtowers until it pleased the angels. The angel Gabriel, who
purports to be speaking with the authority of God, tells him:

"I have chosen you, to enter into my barns: And have commanded
you to open the Corn, that the scattered may appear, and that which
remaineth in the sheaf may stand. And have entered into the first,
and so into the seventh. And have delivered unto you the Testimony of
my spirit to come.


"For, my Barn hath been long without Threshers. And I have kept
my flayles for a long time hid in unknown places: Which flayle is the
Doctrine that I deliver unto you: Which is the Instrument of
thrashing, wherewith you shall beat the shears, that the Corn which
is scattered, and the rest may be all one.

"(But a word in the mean season.)

"If I be Master of the Barn, owner of the Corn, and deliverer of
my flayle: If all be mine (And unto you, there is nothing: for you
are hirelings, whose reward is in heaven.)

"Then see, that you neither thresh, nor unbinde, until I bid you,
let it be sufficient unto you: that you know my house, that you know
the labour I will put you to: That I favour you so much as to
entertain you the labourers within my Barn: For within it thresheth
none without my consent."(9)

Surely nothing could be clearer. Throughout the Enochian commun-
ications the angels euphemistically refer to the apocalypse as "the
Harvest." Here Enochian magic is specifically described as
the "Instrument of thrashing." Yet Dee did not comprehend the awesome
significance of the burden that had been laid upon his shoulders.
Elsewhere in the record the angel Mapsama is just as explicit about
the need for Dee to await permission before attempting to use the
Keys:

Mapsama - These Calls are the keyes into the Gates and Cities of
wisdom. Which [Gates] are not able to be opened, but with visible
apparition.
END OF QUOTE

Magicians are labourers, toyboys of higher timeless intelligences and being simply abused by them. These entities have clearly spoken to Dee and it should be quite clear who is the master and the servant in this game.

Anyone who thinks that a mortal of some decades shelf life can surpass and control intelligences that have been around for aeons i.e. billions of years developing continuously is simply IGNORANT .

EDIT:
In Magick and Occult the keywords are POWER, CONTROL, and the EGO becoming DIVINE.
Christianity (Religion) has the core teaching of LOVE.
This is the main difference in my eyes.

 

[Carlisle Blues]

Ecclesiastes 1:9 (King James Version)

9The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
--------------------------------------------------
Ecclesiastes 1:18 (King James Version)

18For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.



------------------------------------
surely no better philosopher than Solomon.

Totally trusting the heavenly Father like little children is what Jesus stated. By trusting one builds a relationship over time with the Father and as with long term relationships secrets are shared and understanding comes naturally. Like a very long marriage the love and faith builds and just is.

Are these statements ^ contradictory???[huh] [huh]

The day I stop learning, exploring and discovering will, indeed, be a very good day to die. shakeshead

I guess there is still hope I can learn new things!!!!:eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap

 

[John in Covina]

Magick: Is Enochian Magick dangerous?

All Magick as to occultism, summoning beings, ghosts etc falls into the dangerous category as the origin of that which comes cannot be determined by ordinary human beings. There is no way to prove or disprove if it's a clever deception on their part.

The version of the Excorcist that is the last and most like a true directors cut has more of Father Merrins speech about the posession and the power of the deceptions and the assaults on the mind of these men. It is worth a listen as it applies to a lot of stuff such as astralprojections mind travel to the use of a WEE-GEE board. This opening up and use is an invitation to that which you really don't want in your life or head. You aren't the master there and you will wind up serving them whether you realize it or not.

 

[John in Covina]

It has always been generally assumed that the apocalypse is in the hands of the angels of wrath, to be visited upon the world at the pleasure of God, at a moment preordained from the beginning of
creation.

***********
In the eyes of many the view is: it does not please God to punish or be wrathful, but it is a condition of His righteousness that sin cannot stand in his presecence. As to the day of reckoning remember that He would have all be Saved and be in Faith but man has free will and can reject. (No Double predestination here.) His mercy is there but in the course of time it will have to come to an end and Judgement will be pronounced.

 

[stephen1965]

...In Magick and Occult the keywords are POWER, CONTROL, and the EGO becoming DIVINE.
Christianity (Religion) has the core teaching of LOVE.
This is the main difference in my eyes.

It's not only religion, Christian or otherwise which seeks LOVE.
Does a practice with a keywords such as 'power', 'control' and 'ego' have to run counter to Love or Conscience? Maybe, but I think that I'm really very wary of the idea that Christianity is the only thing which leads us to truth. Clearly, since there have been many wars fought over it, there are different interpretations. It seems that other schools of thought which don't have the Bible as the central text, might often be derided as 'occult'. It's the idea of 'believing' that you are already perfect or 'saved' and that others have strayed that I can't agree with. (Not aimed at you HungaryTom).
I could say that I'm certain that Christianity, as it is practiced today, has no real msg of LOVE and I could think of a thousand examples to back this up. As has been said before, Christianity has an esoteric element , Gnosticism. This too is often derided as 'occult'.
Can we try to ascertain what we agree upon rather than say 'it's my way or the Highway'? (Again not aimed at anyone)

 

[John in Covina]

Gnosticism is rejected by most Christians as a venture off the path.
Q: When was the last Christian war fought? In Christendom today, name which of the the denominations that do not do charitable work.

Unitarianism amongst "Christians" supposes that the Bible is a collection of stories for their time and all roads leads to heaven. Others do not take this approach. But for them it is along the lines of: if you knew the bridge was out would you try to warn the drivers going that way?

 

[Viola]

Q: When was the last Christian war fought?

What do you mean by Christian war?

 

[John in Covina]

Well, a lot of people will point to the Crusades or the wars attached to the Counter Reformation to point out how violent Christains are and I was wondering if there are those that are linking Christianity to wars in a more recent past?

 

[Viola]

I don't know, I don't think Christians are more violent than any other group and its specious to make sweeping generalizations re: violent religions, but it would depend if you were speaking of only Christian-on-Christian religious violence or Christian-vs.-non-Christian.

But both Northern Ireland and the Serbian/Croatian issues are Christian on both sides and recent, and religion cannot be dismissed in those situations as only casually connected.