The Occult, are you a believer?

[Subvet642]

Well, a lot of people will point to the Crusades or the wars attached to the Counter Reformation to point out how violent Christains are and I was wondering if there are those that are linking Christianity to wars in a more recent past?

How about the Balkans in the 90's? [huh]

 

[stephen1965]

Gnosticism is rejected by most Christians as a venture off the path.
Q: When was the last Christian war fought? In Christendom today, name which of the the denominations that do not do charitable work.

Unitarianism amongst "Christians" supposes that the Bible is a collection of stories for their time and all roads leads to heaven. Others do not take this approach. But for them it is along the lines of: if you knew the bridge was out would you try to warn the drivers going that way?

I'm not saying 'Don't call yourself a Christian', just trying to see what the path is...and wondering why Gnosticism or other ideas have to be a venture off of it. To me, Gnosticism would be likely to contain a lot of knowledge and I suspect it might be nearer to the esoteric heart of Christianity... I suppose I'm just amazed by the number of people who call themselves Christians and turn out to be anything but what I would have thought of as charitable.

A: Do the Troubles in Northern Ireland up until recently count? I don't know but there was a lot of hatred professed between 'Christians' there. Killings/terrorism between catholic and protestants who just can't seem to agree.
As to denominations which do not do charitable work, I don't have that information.

I don't have a problem with the Bible of course but there are other books which obviously have a spiritual msg too.

 

[Viola]

Minor off-point: It doesn't take a belief that the Bible is just stories to believe in multiple roads to heaven.

I am religious and believe in the Bible and believe in multiple paths to Heaven as well.

I'm not Christian, though.

 

[Foofoogal]

I guess there is still hope I can learn new things!!!!

lol lol
Carlisle: are you having fun with me? I will give you another one to help you along.
(Matthew 7:7-8 KJV) (7) Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: (8) For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
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This thread is all over the place and could go many, many ways.
As spirituality is probably one of my top things to discuss I could go on and on. Hopefully it will not end up badly.
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We never know really what someone believes and how they arrived at their beliefs. Experiences and environment plays major roles and it is why it is interesting to me.
I could say if I was born somewhere else (maybe London) I may believe something different but that it the mystery of it. I was not born in London and I believe God directs.
God tells us within the Christian church even there are tares and wheat. I have more of a problem with occultic things overlapping into the church of God but as He says He will have a bride and She will be spotless it will happen. Somehow and someway. Have any of us arrived? No.
Things happen. Dramatic things to shake us completely out of our beliefs or even test our beliefs or even make our beliefs even more sure. I find it all fascinating.
I also am excited now more than I have been in a long time. I believe with the current events a great vacuum or void is becoming quite clear. I believe only God can fill this vacuum.
People are and will be desperate. The things that have tried to replace God are falling by the wayside. Trust in man, money, things, etc. etc. are being shaken.
Hungry hearts will be filled..

 

[Foofoogal]

Do the Troubles in Northern Ireland up until recently count? I don't know but there was a lot of hatred professed between 'Christians' there. Killings/terrorism between catholic and protestants who just can't seem to agree.
As to denominations which do not do charitable work, I don't have that information.

Kings and Kingdoms will all pass away.

 

[stephen1965]

We never know really what someone believes and how they arrived at their beliefs. ...

I'm really interested in how you or anyone else CHOSE 'belief' as a way of life. I really don't wish to be contentious, it's just that I try NOT to 'believe'. Not in the sense that I want to deny anything but the way of life I choose is based on experiential knowledge. I don't claim my way to be superior. But, often when I talk to people who believe what they are doing is right without experience to back it up, I am concerned about what they are capable of.
Is there a distinction between FAITH and Belief? Do the Christians here see Faith as a practice/technique or how do you see it?
Please don't think I'm being anything but genuinely interested.

 

[John in Covina]

But both Northern Ireland and the Serbian/Croatian issues are Christian on both sides and recent, and religion cannot be dismissed in those situations as only casually connected.

Most I think would say these were political in nature that happened to also fall along the divided lined of denominations.

 

[John in Covina]

I'm really interested in how you or anyone else CHOSE 'belief' as a way of life. Is there a distinction between FAITH and Belief? Do the Christians here see Faith as a practice/technique or how do you see it? Please don't think I'm being anything but genuinely interested.

If you believe in GRACE ALONE then you know that you cannot "choose" to believe.

(If you are schooled in math does one choose to believe that 2+2=4? No, it makes sense and can be demonstrated. Unfortunately it is tuff to demostrate to people the existance of God, especially when schooled to other wise, let alone as to the authenticity of the Bible.)

Rejection - choosing not to believe is an active choice, but belief is a passive accenptence not a choice. Faith comes thru hearing the Word, so usually as someone preachs and is reading Scripture aloud to others as a Pastor might. At some point (as the work of the Holy Spirit) there is an unveiling of the Word and it is understood a bit more and makes a bit more sense but it rings true to the hearer, and as such this is not a choice to believe. However one can actively reject it and pay no heed to that small voice.

As a practice Grace Alone then says it's not a point system, you do not earn your way into heaven by good deeds nor can good deeds offset bad ones. But as a practice works are the fruits of thanksgiving for Salvation and without any it would show that the Faith is dead or inactive.

God does not need your good works, your neighbor does.


It always seems like some kind of riddle to those that don't share the Faith and no amount of arguing, convincing and whining on the side of Belief will change a mind. That change comes as Grace Alone, a free gift by God thru the Holy Spirit as a realization and a clarification to Faith. It's not a decision.

Faith and Belief mean the same for some definitions. Faith can be used to describe a religious denomination and that's different.

 

[stephen1965]

....
Unfortunately it is tuff to demonstrate to people the existance of God, especially when schooled to other wise, let alone as to the authenticity of the Bible....

Thanks for making time to write that John in Covina. I'll need to give it some contemplation.

 

[John in Covina]

It's a tough nut to crack which is why while there are bibical scholars they are not all theologians. When speaking of the Bible there is knowledge and there is Knowledge as there is truth and there is the Truth. Belief and Faith are used with a term as to how one sees the world, Scripture, others and what they do. As men we can only judeg people by their actions, what they do, because we can not read their hearts and we install governments with that as the top priority but also with an underlying basis that there are time to be merciful, youth & first time offenders getting probation. When you see things with the eyes of Faith then the parameters shift a bit in some regards because the examples of the Bible are given more weight and changes the aspects of living and reacting in todays world.

Viola - a question as to your belief in the Bible, is it limited to the Old Testament or includes to New too. Do you believe the the Bible is the inerrant Word of God or do you get to pick and choose what you want from it?

 

[stephen1965]

It seems to me John In Covina that you practice a technique of going against self-will and allowing the holy Spirit to direct you.
What you call passive acceptance my practice would call self-observation, where a person would lessen identification/attachment with/to the smaller selves(the many) and merely observe.
Subsequently, the observing self may become free of 'the many', if you like and then can become a permanent Self. I see this process as a number of stages but also as being akin to your 'hearing the Word'. The stages can be vast realizations or small steps in awakening consciousness and conscience.

As to your good works and neighborliness, I see this as similar to the practice of working with others or '2nd line off work'. Putting others on the ladder.

A third line is present in my own practice, which is working for the School itself for continuation of the Work.

As I have said before, the technique or practice of belief or Faith doesn't enter at all for me yet I regard our ultimate aims as the same. Perhaps you will find this presumptuous but I regard it as merely a difference of approach or technique.

 

[Foofoogal]

Is there a distinction between FAITH and Belief?

I agree with John on his take.

For me personally as I think you are asking about my personal ideas.
I was taught from infancy to believe. Bible drills etc. the nuts and bolts of my parents religion.
I took it all at face value. Not sure if this will come across but parents are covering for their children. (when I was a child I understood as a child)
Many things led up to my searching as I got older but the Jim Jones tragedy had a profound shaking on me. I started looking at my pastor and church and for first time needed some answers. Why do I believe such and such.
I asked the Lord to show me who He was and what He was all about. I was hungry for the truth. He took me on a wild ride and is still taking me on a wild ride. He has shown me many, many miracles.
If I could sum up one word that gives me Faith or why I believe it would be His faithfulness.
When your back is up against the wall at 2:00 in the morning and noone else is there He is. Time and time and time again He has shown himself very, very Faithful to me and I adore Him.
He wants faithfulness as much as He is faithful.
He is called Our First Love and it is true. If you ever watch a young couple and first love you will understand it better.
They are gaga about each other. Faith, Belief? He is just I AM.

 

[John in Covina]

Perhaps, but the term self here is a little akward. The idea is one is tainted with sin and is in total rebellion to God until the gift of Salvation is upon one. Even then there are two natures the old Man (Adam) and the Sanctified Saint are in the one person at the same time. The desires of the flesh as seen by the Adam part of one self provide terrible temptation and often win out as they are part of our nature as human beings. Sin is not action alone, it can be commission or ommision- things we have done and things we did not do but should have. Also they are part of life in thought, word and deed. What we think, what we say, as well as what we do. It surrounds us and we can't sepperate our selves from it, angry because you were cut off while driving- murder. Look at a hot guy or hot babe well lust = adultry.

Yet there is not method by which we purify ourselves, it's by the Remittance of Sins, those sins were payed for by Jesus on the cross. It's not as much a method of selfgrowth or selfhelp system as more a I'm ill and I go to the doctor because he has the cure type of thing.

Some people will tell you they don't sin well that is a lie. You can't get away from it and you surely can't strip it off your self by yourself. That realization that the Law can only condemn you it can't save you is a sign post that points to Christ for that help that Salvation.

It sounds crazy, you bet.

Pontius Pilate asked his wife, "What is truth?" She said that she could not tell him but she knew it when she heard it. Some may go thru their lives unable to recognize truth or disreagard it even when they hear it. And that's the main difference for those that Believe or have Faith and those that don't in regards to the Bible God Christ, etc.

A bit more like a light that is switched on, plus the un-plugged in lamp can't plug itself in either.

DOH! more riddles.

 

[John in Covina]

It seems to me John In Covina that you practice a technique of going against self-will and allowing the holy Spirit to direct you. .

Self will may equal the fleshly life but allowing the Holy Spirit to direct me makes for a choice and that's not the gig.

 

[Viola]

Viola - a question as to your belief in the Bible, is it limited to the Old Testament or includes to New too. Do you believe the the Bible is the inerrant Word of God or do you get to pick and choose what you want from it?

It is limited to the Five Books of Moses. Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. Respectfully, I would not call them the Old Testament. I believe it is the inerrant will of G-d but I do not believe all translations or interpretations are correct.

That said, I believe in multiple paths to Heaven. Righteous people who are good of heart and action can all know Heaven regardless of religion, is what my religion believes.

 

[Matt Deckard]

My followers are believers.

 

[John in Covina]

I can not recall from the Pentateuch what is regarded as righteousness other than faith.

 

[Viola]

I can not recall from the Pentateuch what is regarded as righteousness other than faith.

Righteous action?

As the woman in Jericho? Balaam the prophet?

EDIT: I think seeing righteousness as purely faith does not come from the Pentateuch. Remember, Abraham argued with G-d for Sodom and Gomorrah on the basis there could be good people there, when the only believers in the Holy One were in Abraham's own camp - and it was a compelling argument, G-d agreed to his terms again and again. And all through those Books, it is shown that faith alone is not enough without correct action and obedience: Moses believed, but he acted incorrectly once, and for that never saw Israel.

 

[stephen1965]

I agree with John on his take.

I will need to give it a little time to respond fully to what both you and John say. Before that though, I think that both of you seem to use a fairly specialized language. it takes a little while for me to try to understand your terminology. That's fair enough. Obviously, around the world, there are different denominations, different cultures, practices etc each with their own unique way of describing spiritual experiences. Some use the Bible as the central text. Others don't. But I don't see this as a boundary to experience the Spiritual. To me, Christianity was one school which has branched out into different schools each with their own specialized language, techniques, etc and there are other, non-Christian schools who are seeking the same thing using different (non Christian) terminology. Furthermore, each one has an exoteric and an esoteric part to them... (and sometimes the esoteric part may cease and only the exoteric shell remain).

 

[John in Covina]

Righteous action?

As the woman in Jericho? Balaam the prophet?

EDIT: I think seeing righteousness as purely faith does not come from the Pentateuch. Remember, Abraham argued with G-d for Sodom and Gomorrah on the basis there could be good people there, when the only believers in the Holy One were in Abraham's own camp - and it was a compelling argument, G-d agreed to his terms again and again. And all through those Books, it is shown that faith alone is not enough without correct action and obedience: Moses believed, but he acted incorrectly once, and for that never saw Israel.

Faith with out action is dead.

Although Balaam when rebuked by the Lord, seeing the Angel of God turned from his task to what God gave him to do. I think that it's not the action but the fact he believed what he was told and then did it. If he did not believe there would be no reason to obey God.

Hebrews 11:31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.