The Occult, are you a believer?

[Fedord Spaniard]

We're watching this carefully.

I hope thats not something bad.

 

[Subvet642]

[QUOTE="Skeet" McD]Oh, SubVet...if we succeed in meeting, I perceive the need for a good quantity of beer and a lot of talk!

For my money, a very unslanted and correct description of some of the matters under discussion--as you say: it's a huge issue!

Hey: we probably both find it amusing and a little scary to see what people actually believe about Christianity (of which I am a practicing member)!

Point of clarification: Hey, as a Roman Catholic, I know ALL ABOUT ritual, as you describe it, and am OK with it; other Christians are not. That's another thread, and probably not for the FL either! but to me, "Magic(k)" encompasses efforts to control supernatural powers; prayer supplicates rather than attempts to control (all those RC Novenas to the contrary: folk religion is different than theological religion, and don't I just know it!). Am I wrong? (this is an honest question, not a twit)

I have to flat-out disagree with you on the last comment quoted above (not that either one of us can prove our respective opinions): If you believe in a concept of the "supernatural" of whatever variety....it is, by definition, a belief that it is possible for something to exist beyond the constraints of physical laws. It certainly IS true that much that once was considered supernatural has been proved NOT to be; and there may be much more that will eventually go that route, as our knowledge of the world grows; perhaps even all of it--that would make your position true, if it could be proved. But in the meantime, saying that the supernatural doesn't exist, because (by your definition) it can't rather beggars the question....

Or so I think, and worth no more nor no less than that

"Skeet"[/QUOTE]

I don't think that we are disagreeing; it's a matter of semantics. I believe that magic is a way of working with Nature as created by the Creator from Its Own Self. The Laws of Nature (or physics, if you prefer), are Divine in origin. Just because we can't understand the mechanism by which something works, doesn't mean it doesn't work. Quantum Mechanics is filled with weird things that we don't understand, but that doesn't make them supernatural. That which is called "supernatural" seems to me to be so much Hollywood parlor tricks. When at Mass (I was raised a Catholic, as well), the priest raises the host, the alter boys ring the bells, and the host Trans-substantiates into the Body of Christ, he does not beg, he knows it happens! Likewise, we do not supplicate ourselves, neither do we demand. I believe that Deity is more generous to us than we are to ourselves; it does no good to ask more than is good for us, we won't get it. But, like the rest of the Universe, we are of divine origin. If we were made to grovel, we wouldn't have been given two feet to stand upon. This would be better over a couple of beers, :beer: this is complicated!

 

[Carlisle Blues]

This is a personal but timely subject though as things are changing rapidly in our country in terms of religions.
I personally believe Nancy Reagan opened some doors that should not of been opened so there.

Famous subjects include Warren G. Harding and the curse of the Hope Diamond, the uncanny similarities between the lives and deaths of John F. Kennedy and Abraham Lincoln, George Washington's visions, Ronald and Nancy Reagan's reliance on psychics, the haunted homes of Dolly Madison and Rosalyn Carter, Jimmy Carter's UFO sighting, Hillary Clinton's experience with channeling, the mysterious curse of Tecumseh, the secret societies of presidents, and much more.

Take it from Brian Thompson he has an inquiring mind ...he oughtta know!!!

Thompson's position is that before Nancy there were others in the White House who did spooky things.

Religious issues have always been changing rapidly in our country, with one constant...the freedom of religion.

 

[Lefty]

Like I did say though people know what they know.
pigeon toe sort of touched on this. I believe this goes back eons. What our forefathers dabbled with will open doors to different things or we will see the teachings as very normal to us. Just reality really.

Aside from the name/entity/etc. inserted into the prayer/incantation/request/etc., please define what you believe to be the difference between the occult and religion. I know your feelings as to occult being in opposition to religion, so you don't need to tell me that one is good and one is evil. I asking for specific differences between the purpose of belief and practice in one vs. the other from your perspective.

As an example of what I'm looking for (and I'm not going for accuracy here):

occult: An astrologer looks to the stars to help predict behavior. A person may believe that he or she is acting of his/her own volition, but the movement of the stars is really in control.

religion: Christianity balances free will and determinism. Humans are free to make their own choices, but God was already aware of and had planned those choices. Therefore, while there was free will in the choice, it really could have only turned-out the way that it did.

 

[stephen1965]

I think we should of stuck to hats and vintage clothing. :eusa_doh:

Gurdjieff, often referred to as an occultist, (author of 'Beelzebub's Tales to His Grandchildren') and Fourth Way teacher was a stylish man whenever he chose to be IMO.

 

[Foofoogal]

asking for specific differences between the purpose of belief and practice in one vs. the other from your perspective.

I don't really understand your ?.
I can only answer one is the counterfeit. Everything Jesus has done or is has a counterfeit.
Not sure if I can answer without sounding like a wacko. lol
Man is made specifically IMHO to be a worshipper of God.
You have to believe in something to be a worshipper.
Since you brought up Astrology specifically this would put the focus on the person. The Magi found the Christ child by looking at the stars. Astronomers.
Whatever takes the glory or attempts to take the glory away from the Glorious one is the counterfeit.
------------In simple terms:

2 Football teams.

Will you cheer for the side that has already lost or the side that has won?
I choose to be a cheerleader for God. Go, God, Go.
I have not come to this conclusion lightly.

 

[Creeping Past]

In this vein, The Occult Establishment, by James Webb is a fascinating book about the adoption and/or revival of occult ideas throughout the 20th century by people with power in mind.

Here's a good essay on both The Occult Establishment and it's companion volume, The Occult Underground: http://www.alpheus.org/html/reviews/esoteric_history/rev_webb.html.

 

[Carlisle Blues]

2 Football teams.

Will you cheer for the side that has already lost or the side that has won?
I choose to be a cheerleader for God. Go, God, Go.
I have not come to this conclusion lightly.

I am a Giants fan myself. Glad to see the Jets got Sanchez in the draft, as well.

What about free will and the contrivance called religion? Is spirituality the same as religion. If I am not a believer will I be condemned even if I do good things. Is God an acronym for Good Orderly Direction?

As usual FooFoo you raised a lot of questions.

 

[Lefty]

I don't really understand your ?.
I can only answer one is the counterfeit. Everything Jesus has done or is has a counterfeit.

Since you brought up Astrology specifically this would put the focus on the person. The Magi found the Christ child by looking at the stars. Astronomers.
Whatever takes the glory or attempts to take the glory away from the Glorious one is the counterfeit.

Well, hang on a sec. First, there were many, many religions around before anything in the New Testament would have occurred. Many of these are still very widely practiced. Hinduism is somewhere between 2000 and 5000 years older than the New Testament. 900 million people still practice Hinduism. Likewise, most of the practices characterized as being part of the occult are far older than Christianity. It's hard to call all of these practices counterfeit when they were widely practiced long before Jesus.

Second, astronomy is a science based upon observable, measurable data. Astrology is for discussions at bingo. Don't confuse the two.

 

[Creeping Past]

Will you cheer for the side that has already lost or the side that has won?

Unfortunately, that analogy doesn't play in some parts of the British Isles, where it's a matter of resolve and pride to support the losing team!

 

[tuppence]

I don't really understand your ?.
I can only answer one is the counterfeit. Everything Jesus has done or is has a counterfeit.
Not sure if I can answer without sounding like a wacko. lol
Man is made specifically IMHO to be a worshipper of God.
You have to believe in something to be a worshipper.
Since you brought up Astrology specifically this would put the focus on the person. The Magi found the Christ child by looking at the stars. Astronomers.
Whatever takes the glory or attempts to take the glory away from the Glorious one is the counterfeit.
------------In simple terms:

2 Football teams.

Will you cheer for the side that has already lost or the side that has won?
I choose to be a cheerleader for God. Go, God, Go.
I have not come to this conclusion lightly.

You need to travel a bit more, not that many people give 2 whoo hoos about worshiping God in our country. I believe you'd raise eyebrows in my Neighbourhood.

 

[Foofoogal]

Humans are free to make their own choices, but God was already aware of and had planned those choices.

this is where it gets interesting. The Lord is sort of like a bloodhound. You can run but you cannot hide.
No matter how much you may think you have found a novel thing you have not. The powers that are have always been.
http://www.parentcompany.com/awareness_of_god/aogtoc.htm

The heredity thing comes into play here. We have to count in the factor of people before us did not have tvs or internet. Most lived in a small circle of influence. For instance during the turn of the century everyone mostly had a child or children get sick and not make it from simple things. This tended to make people Not look to themselves or their neighbor for the answers.
So Grandma or Grandpa prayed alot. Their children saw them do this. These prayers are kept if you may by the Lord and bear fruit years later.
I am speaking of the Christian aspect of it here.
He loves our dependence on Him and just patiently forgives us for going astray but at same time can put in place events or meetings to save us from ourselves. Divine intervention, miracles, people coming across our paths.
Sometimes like children some give in the hard way and others easily.
The main thing is He never leaves us or forsakes us. It is a choice to reject yes.
He does not give Hope, He is Hope.

The occult cannot give me hope or astrology. It cannot ever be hope.

 

[scotrace]

I hope thats not something bad.

It isn't something good.

 

[Foofoogal]

Unfortunately, that analogy doesn't play in some parts of the British Isles, where it's a matter of resolve and pride to support the losing team!

maybe that is the problem.lol
is that what tuppence means?

no wonder the lady in the pool in Europe looked at me wide eyed when I spoke of religion. I think it may not be so loosely discussed there. lol :eusa_clap

you people are a hoot...

 

[tuppence]

Unfortunately, that analogy doesn't play in some parts of the British Isles, where it's a matter of resolve and pride to support the losing team!

We're a bit the same over here. I don't know how old you are. but your reply reminded me of that old British comedy series 'Ripping Yarns', where the father named his son after a soccer team. I can't remember the exact details, but it was hilarious.
Found it Golden Gordan http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGzcH5Nfd6w&feature=related

 

[Lefty]

you people are a hoot...

The Lord is sort of like a bloodhound. You can run but you cannot hide.

That's strange. I was about to say the same thing.

Dog works in mysterious ways.

 

[Foofoogal]

It isn't something good.

i am trying to be good. they keep asking me ?'s.

I don't like discussing this really. Done...

 

[Creeping Past]

We're a bit the same over here. I don't know how old you are. but your reply reminded me of that old British comedy series 'Ripping Yarns', where the father named his son after a soccer team. I can't remember the exact details, but it was hilarious.

Golden Gordon

To keep things on topic, I thought I'd chuck in a mention of The Curse of the Claw episode, which is nearer the occult theme of this thread.

 

["Skeet" McD]

I think it's a tribute to the diverse interests of Loungers that earlier today I was commenting on bicycle clips (they keep trousers out of your bike chain) and now I'm following a thread on the mysteries of consciousness(es).

I understand where your coming from, Foofoogal. Open-minded and inquisitive as I am, I just can't bring myself to peek at the "Show us your socks" thread. Some things will remain mysterious to all individuals.

Couldn't agree more, and wouldn't have said it as well!
:eusa_clap lol :eusa_clap lol :eusa_clap lol :eusa_clap

 

["Skeet" McD]

Hush.

We're watching this carefully.

uhhhoh....hidden forces at work again

(psssst: everyone! put on your tinfoil hats: then they can't hear us)

(of course, I can't prove it....)

"Skeet"