The Occult, are you a believer?

[Fedord Spaniard]

Dear Fedora Spaniard,

This thread is controversial and inspires people for discussion.
Sacrifices of humans (Abraham to offer his son Isaac, the original purpose of gladiator fights,) and of animals to feed the worshipped entities with the streaming life energies of the sacrificed being was a reality.

Hebrews saw all these practices in the neighboring and now by-gone cultures (descriptions of Canaanite cults; Cults of Sodom and Gomorrah, sexual rituals with animals i.e. the literal bestiality, and sodomy. Incest –the Pharaoh have been doing this all the time to preserve the divine lineage- has been also described. See the daughters of Lot. Old Testament reports in several places about throwing children in the burning altars of Moloch, the existence of Topeths on mountain tops i.e. altars for human sacrifice, Baal worship (Beelzebub vs. Lord of the Flies) and Idolatry – adoration of the golden calf in Egypt.

The scapegoat was cast out of the city to the desert and a sacrifice for Asasel the desert demon, while the lamb was always meant to be a sacrifice for God – like Abel).

Conquistadores saw the practice of human sacrifice being still alive and practiced when they met Aztecs and Mayans in the New World.

Crowley wanted to resurrect these practices and actually achieved that he got posessed and could live on drugs.

It doesn’t matter whether others can see what is reality to the practicioner – for you it count only what you perceive.

The name occult means literally hidden. People practicing that thing want to protect their knowledge and they want to keep their incognito and this is why you will never find any answers on a vintage style forum where people confess that they are true devouts of Satan or they are practicing pederasty, bestiality, necrophilia, whatever to broaden their consciousness.

Stick to the Bible - it is a good basis in spirituality for people of the Western (Judeo-Christian) civilization.

Tom

Thank You for your input Tom. You know your history well and yes these things did happen in the Torah/Bible and have been around for centuries. Crowley had to have been possesed when he no longer had to take precautions when doing rituals and he came out "unaffected" or so he thought. He even wrote "The Book of Lies" with a spirit whispering in his ear telling him what to write in the book. Sometimes I wonder if it was his unfinished rituals while near Lochness in Scotland that might have caused what is seen by some as "Nessie" to appear. If Nessie does exist i wonder if its a demon that he unlocked while he was there. Yes i agree if some people have practiced these thing they will most likely keep it to themselves. Ill stick to the bible and would never practice the Occult even tho i have some knowledge of it. Personally i will never agree with Satanism or Luciferianism (Luciferianism being the real deal of Satanic worship as opposed to Laveyan Satanism which is atheism) but if people want to do that, thats up to them thats thier life..it doesnt impact on mine as long as its not being preached to me. I would like for the members of this forum that are interested in this thread, to please voice their opinions on this topic. And if some feel comfortable to share stories or knowledge then thats a bonus.

 

[Maj.Nick Danger]

I have known a few people that have dabbled in the dark side of spirituality. They were invariably just sick individuals as a result of those practices. Spiritually, mentally, and physically because, "As the mind goes, so goes the body". The adversary of humanity is a cruel master, and certainly to be avoided at all costs. All the Biblical laws and moral precepts we have heard all our lives are our defense against this entity which feeds on and fuels humanity's fears. And yet some people still succumb. The greatest lie the devil ever conceived, was that he does not exist.

 

[Charlie Noodles]

I definitely believe in "headology" and I'm quite open to, but very suspicious about, the rest.

 

[stephen1965]

The name occult means literally hidden. People practicing that thing want to protect their knowledge and they want to keep their incognito and this is why you will never find any answers on a vintage style forum where people confess that they are true devouts of Satan or they are practicing pederasty, bestiality, necrophilia, whatever to broaden their consciousness.

Stick to the Bible - it is a good basis in spirituality for people of the Western (Judeo-Christian) civilization.

Tom

I'm very interested in the idea of hidden knowledge and in this sense the practice of the occult. I've never been a worshipper of satan or practiced pederasty, bestiality or necrophilia though, and I don't think I ever will. 'Belief' or the concept of Faith doesn't enter into any of the practices in which I'm interested. The idea of God enters as a concept of 'an Absolute' but not really as an interventionist force. I would stress that any practices in which I might be involved have not been counter to what I consider to be the true and hidden teachings in Christianity and other religious practices (as far as I know). IMO they are not really 'hidden' but it merely seems that they are. I wanted to post because I think it's probably important to say that not all that might be thought of as 'occult' is 'satanic' or 'evil' but 'hidden' knowledge and esoteric practices have been IMO part of Christianity. I sincerely hope this doesn't offend anyone, these are just my own opinions.

 

["Skeet" McD]

I'm very interested in the idea of hidden knowledge and in this sense the practice of the occult...I wanted to post because I think it's probably important to say that not all that might be thought of as 'occult' is 'satanic' or 'evil' but 'hidden' knowledge and esoteric practices have been IMO part of Christianity. IMO they are not really 'hidden' but it merely seems that they are. I sincerely hope this doesn't offend anyone, these are just my own opinions.

Dear Stephen1965,
Thank you for posting, and (to me at least) you're quite clear as to what you mean. It goes without saying that some folks here will agree with you; some will disagree with you; and some undoubtedly WILL be offended. IMO, you've done what you can to avoid the latter, but such is life.

You raise a distinction that appeared early in this thread: between the supernatural (about whose existence, nature, etc. there's MORE than enough to discuss and debate!) and the occult (both in its literal meaning of hidden, as you say, and the more general (if sloppier) use of the term to describe darker practices.

To suggest that there ISN'T a section of the universe and its workings we DON'T understand--and is therefore "occult" in the first sense of that word--is almost nonsensical. Much of what is now accepted as standard knowledge of the physical world and its workings was once "hidden" (and I might add, a good deal of it attributed to supernatural causes).

Only my own opinion here, as always: I believe that there is plenty that is still hidden from us...and a good deal of it is probably meant to remain so. Powers (and, to me, entities) as strong or stronger than ourselves do exist.

Speaking as a Catholic Christian...free will is a huge part of our theology and therefore world view. To touch tangentially on a post some time ago which said "why would the unseen part of creation be there, if it wasn't expected that we would try to discover it" I'd answer....the great question of mankind, starting with the Garden of Eden (and this works whether you think that's a revealed spiritual truth or just a folktale), is man's difficulty in saying "I CAN do this; but I choose NOT to do this." Predestinarian Christians will not agree, of course, but the Catholic answer to the question at hand is "if there was no possibility of disobedience, there could be no obedience--and hence, no free will."

One's conscience, deeply and thoroughly searched, will be the best guide, but as a general rule....I agree with those who have said "better not to meddle with things/powers/beings not fully understood" no matter what God, or none, you believe in. You wouldn't go into a power generating station with a butter knife in each hand and start touching random objects....

Or so I think!
"Skeet"

 

[p51]

Kid, I've flown from one side of this galaxy to the other, and I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I've never seen anything to make me believe that there's one all-powerful Force controlling everything.

-Han Solo, "Star Wars"

I think that sums it up. I've been too many places and seen too many things to think that there's really much beyond what nature will throw at us and the randomness of human behavior. I really don't believe in much else as anything other than that is pretty much wishful thinking and no evidence to support it.

 

[Fedord Spaniard]

-Han Solo, "Star Wars"

I think that sums it up. I've been too many places and seen too many things to think that there's really much beyond what nature will throw at us and the randomness of human behavior. I really don't believe in much else as anything other than that is pretty much wishful thinking and no evidence to support it.

"I suggest you try it again Luke, this time let go your conscience self...and act on instinct..." - Obiwan Kenobi lol

 

[Carlisle Blues]

I firmly believe : When the moon is in the Seventh House, And Jupiter aligns with Mars, Then peace will guide the planets, And love will steer the stars.

I also have a great deal of faith which means that: I have a firm belief in something for which there is no proof. For example, “Nothing worth doing is completed in our lifetime; therefore we must be saved by hope. Nothing true or beautiful makes complete sense in any immediate context of history; therefore we must be saved by faith. Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore, we are saved by love.” Reinhold Niebuhr

But I am an agnostic when it comes to the occult. [huh]

 

[stephen1965]

To me, Faith or 'belief' is the 'Way of the Monk' and it implies principally an emotional surrender to 'God'. The other 'ways' might be broadly termed 'the way of the Fakir', a physical approach to understanding and the 'way of the yogi' , an intellectual way to understanding. These are just names but I hope it's clear so far. It would seem that those seeking truth or understanding or 'God' will also have to 'conquer' the physical, emotional and intellectual sides of their nature. Theoretically then we might achieve being capable of unconditional love. But love or conscience should/would be being built during the practice. So to me, faith is an important and central part of a school of thought which belongs to the way of the Monk or emotional way. Other schools might begin elsewhere and therefore seem immoral or anti the idea of God. To me,the concept of evil is based in ignorance of one of the paths/ways. The idea of 'devil' would be the 'temptation' to forget oneself/to be asleep and not on the way. Or, the idea of 'devil' is a temptation to stray from the way, especially having built up certain abilities. There is also, in theory also be a fourth way which would be effort made in all the 3 ways previously mentioned, at once. It would 'naturally' hide it's practices...

Well, I don't want to go on or try to highjack the thread but wondered if anyone had (more) thoughts on reincarnation(from the golden age or otherwise). My favorite theory is eternal recurrence, difficult (for me) to understand but we have more than one lifetime in which to study it :eusa_doh:

"If you help others, you will be helped, perhaps tomorrow, perhaps in one hundred years, but you will be helped. Nature must pay off the debt...It is a mathematical law and all life is mathematics."
-- Gurdjieff

 

[Subvet642]

Clearing up a few points

As a practicing "occultist", I find it both amusing and a little scary to discover what nonsense people actually believe. I have been Druid of OBOD for 16 years, and have been formally trained by the Order as such. First, I want to say that I'm not offended and seek only to clear up a few points. It is a huge subject, and cannot be covered in a forum like this. As someone pointed out, occult means simply "hidden". This isn't hidden so much, but most folks simply haven't bothered to look. "Magic(k)" is nothing more than an appeal to the Divine for intervention. [angel] Most people do this through prayer. Some people do this through ritual, which is just a more complex form of prayer, involving movement as well as recitation. As to the term "supernatural", there can be nothing which is supernatural as that implies something outside the laws of Nature, which is, by definition, impossible. Some people have used terms like "Satanism". That particular entity is part of the Judeo/Christian mythos, and has nothing to do with the Western Spiritual Tradition; he does not exist to us. Judeo/Christianity is an Eastern Spiritual practice, as its origin is in the Middle East. Crowley was just an old perv who read a few books and liked to scare folks, he had a lot of problems, but no wisdom, insight or power. Many Pagans (*a word which encompasses a whole range of practices, like Christianity encompasses many different denominations) believe in the "Single Source Theory". This states that when Mankind was small in number and living close together, there was the original spirituality. As people migrated out of eastern Africa, they took this original belief system with them. As the different cultures evolved, so did this original spirituality evolve to suit these new cultures. After all, what may be true to a desert people may be inappropriate to a forest dwelling people, etc.. As a result, almost all religions that I know of share some "family" traits. One of these is the concept of the Solar Hero; the young child of light who grows up very quickly, sacrifices himself for his followers, descends into the underworld to do battle and release some prisoners. He has been called Christ, Mithras, Hercules/Heracles, Arthur, Bel/Baal among others. This is, of course, a metaphor for the course of the Sun in it's yearly travels and the spiritual principal behind it. Oh, one more note, Nessie was first sighted by St. Columbkille somewhere around the 6th century.

 

["Skeet" McD]

As a practicing "occultist", I find it both amusing and a little scary to discover what nonsense people actually believe..."Magic(k)" is nothing more than an appeal to the Divine for intervention. [angel] Most people do this through prayer...As to the term "supernatural", there can be nothing which is supernatural as that implies something outside the laws of Nature, which is, by definition, impossible.

Oh, SubVet...if we succeed in meeting, I perceive the need for a good quantity of beer and a lot of talk!

For my money, a very unslanted and correct description of some of the matters under discussion--as you say: it's a huge issue!

Hey: we probably both find it amusing and a little scary to see what people actually believe about Christianity (of which I am a practicing member)!

Point of clarification: Hey, as a Roman Catholic, I know ALL ABOUT ritual, as you describe it, and am OK with it; other Christians are not. That's another thread, and probably not for the FL either! but to me, "Magic(k)" encompasses efforts to control supernatural powers; prayer supplicates rather than attempts to control (all those RC Novenas to the contrary: folk religion is different than theological religion, and don't I just know it!). Am I wrong? (this is an honest question, not a twit)

I have to flat-out disagree with you on the last comment quoted above (not that either one of us can prove our respective opinions): If you believe in a concept of the "supernatural" of whatever variety....it is, by definition, a belief that it is possible for something to exist beyond the constraints of physical laws. It certainly IS true that much that once was considered supernatural has been proved NOT to be; and there may be much more that will eventually go that route, as our knowledge of the world grows; perhaps even all of it--that would make your position true, if it could be proved. But in the meantime, saying that the supernatural doesn't exist, because (by your definition) it can't rather beggars the question....

Or so I think, and worth no more nor no less than that

"Skeet"

 

[Creeping Past]

As is often the case in discussions like this, some posters seem to be conflating the 'paranormal' and the occult. Others assume that what is not known or sanctioned as known must be bad. In my opinion, the occult is nothing to do with the negatives of religious faith: religious people may perpetuate whatever negativities they wish. But they should refrain from casting their net of self- and structurally-imposed limits to include everyone who does not agree with them.

What is often termed the occult is, at best, a search for a definition of a human faculty for creative expression beyond what is regarded as normal for the time in question. It's a search for a connection with the infinite, the universal.

I prefer to regard this search as an ongoing investigation into the limits of expressive humanity. I don't regard these things as hidden. They're just obscure for the time being.

Furthermore, I don't like secrecy and I don't think there's anything to be gained from keeping knowledge hidden. If occultists want to do this, it's up to them. What's nearer the truth is that there are some things that people don't or won't understand. As the old English proverb goes: "You can't tell no one nothing." Many things, including great truths about life, the universe, and even about ourselves, remain hidden or occult because we don't choose to see and know.

That's what I think.

 

[Laura Chase]

I used to very strongly believe in the supernatural. As I've grown older, I believed less, until the point now when I'm extremely skeptical (but still open to persuasion by empirical evidence). I've had some very strange experiences myself, including one particularly eerie one that still puzzles me greatly as I've found other people who have experienced it as well. However, I'd exhaust all other possibilities before I turned to the supernatural as an explanation. The mind is a monkey and it does odd things - there have been very interesting experiments in recent years in triggering the sense of a numinous "other" in the brain, for example.

Tell us about your experience!

I'm extremely open minded and curious about everything, so I wouldn't say don't believe in an occult, hidden world, a world not available to our everyday sight (at least the type of viewing we have in the Western world). But I haven't had any experiences that have made me believe completely in it, I only had these experiences when I was small but in hindsight, they seem much more like figments of my imagination than real occurrences. But really, when speaking about the occult, is there a difference?

In relation to this, I'm very curious about Alan Moore and his view on the occult. He calls himself a magician and 'worships' the God Glycon. I heard him explain this in the movie The Mindscape of Alan Moore (amazing!), but I can't remember exactly what he said. Should see it again. He had so many interesting thoughts. On Wikipedia it says:

Following his (as he put it) "coming out" as a magician in 1993, the English comic book writer and occultist Alan Moore has declared himself a devotee of Glycon, and has cheerfully admitted in interviews the absurdity of worshiping a probable fraud. Moore has declared he considers all ideas (including fictions) in some sense, "real". He has performed spoken word under the name the Moon and Serpent Grand Egyptian Theatre of Marvels. With Steve Moore, Alan Moore is preparing a book — entitled The Moon and Serpent Bumper Book of Magic, which will detail the history of magic, and particularly the histories of both Alexander and Glycon.

 

[Foofoogal]

I think we should of stuck to hats and vintage clothing. :eusa_doh:

 

[scotrace]

I think we should of stuck to hats and vintage clothing. :eusa_doh:

Hush.

We're watching this carefully.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

She's getting spooked, s'all.

.

 

[Fedord Spaniard]

As a practicing "occultist", I find it both amusing and a little scary to discover what nonsense people actually believe. I have been Druid of OBOD for 16 years, and have been formally trained by the Order as such. First, I want to say that I'm not offended and seek only to clear up a few points. It is a huge subject, and cannot be covered in a forum like this. As someone pointed out, occult means simply "hidden". This isn't hidden so much, but most folks simply haven't bothered to look. "Magic(k)" is nothing more than an appeal to the Divine for intervention. [angel] Most people do this through prayer. Some people do this through ritual, which is just a more complex form of prayer, involving movement as well as recitation. As to the term "supernatural", there can be nothing which is supernatural as that implies something outside the laws of Nature, which is, by definition, impossible. Some people have used terms like "Satanism". That particular entity is part of the Judeo/Christian mythos, and has nothing to do with the Western Spiritual Tradition; he does not exist to us. Judeo/Christianity is an Eastern Spiritual practice, as its origin is in the Middle East. Crowley was just an old perv who read a few books and liked to scare folks, he had a lot of problems, but no wisdom, insight or power. Many Pagans (*a word which encompasses a whole range of practices, like Christianity encompasses many different denominations) believe in the "Single Source Theory". This states that when Mankind was small in number and living close together, there was the original spirituality. As people migrated out of eastern Africa, they took this original belief system with them. As the different cultures evolved, so did this original spirituality evolve to suit these new cultures. After all, what may be true to a desert people may be inappropriate to a forest dwelling people, etc.. As a result, almost all religions that I know of share some "family" traits. One of these is the concept of the Solar Hero; the young child of light who grows up very quickly, sacrifices himself for his followers, descends into the underworld to do battle and release some prisoners. He has been called Christ, Mithras, Hercules/Heracles, Arthur, Bel/Baal among others. This is, of course, a metaphor for the course of the Sun in it's yearly travels and the spiritual principal behind it. Oh, one more note, Nessie was first sighted by St. Columbkille somewhere around the 6th century.

Sir, thank you for your explanation of what the Occult means to you. Since you are a member of the Order of Bards, Ovates & Druids im sure that your beliefs are different from someone who is not. I disagree with some of what you said above but i respect your opinion of what this topic means to you. Im willing to listen to different points of views on this subject in a non biased manner. Just because i dont agrree with certain beliefs doesnt mean im going to try to impose my own beliefs on someone else. I honestly believe that not everyone that practices the Occult has evil intentions... Ive never believed the Occult as whole to be evil or "Satanic"... The reason why i mentioned "Satanism" and "Luciferianism" above is because i was trying to make an example of somethings that i dont agree with. Even though i dont agree with those beliefs, i would never tell someone who does to "stop that" or "dont do that" because everyone has freewill and is master of thier own life. Any beliefs different from my own, will never impact on my life, just as long as those beliefs arent being forced upon me...so thats why im not offended if someone else believes in something that i dont. And youre right, Nessie was spotted during the time of the Irish monk Columba...centuries before Crowley, I forgot about that. Thanks for the reminder.

 

[Foofoogal]

you would be surprised and amazed if I told you my stories and experiences along these lines but I will not.
Spirituality is a very personal thing and so are experiences.

Marc, you must of missed this tidbit. Not spooked. I suggest some reading on Elijah as a starter. lol
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elijah

Now that should spook you. He sort of kicked butt and took names laughing the whole way..lol

 

[Creeping Past]

I think it's a tribute to the diverse interests of Loungers that earlier today I was commenting on bicycle clips (they keep trousers out of your bike chain) and now I'm following a thread on the mysteries of consciousness(es).

I understand where your coming from, Foofoogal. Open-minded and inquisitive as I am, I just can't bring myself to peek at the "Show us your socks" thread. Some things will remain mysterious to all individuals.

 

[Foofoogal]

Like I did say though people know what they know.
pigeon toe sort of touched on this. I believe this goes back eons. What our forefathers dabbled with will open doors to different things or we will see the teachings as very normal to us. Just reality really.
This is a personal but timely subject though as things are changing rapidly in our country in terms of religions.
I personally believe Nancy Reagan opened some doors that should not of been opened so there.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/11/07/obama-apologizes-to-nancy_n_142280.html

yippee.....