Please help in dating/placing a mystery time-capsule HWM-type jacket

[JMax]

I’ll say this every time I see the jacket. If it was bigger, I would have bin’d it months ago. I struck up a convo with the seller months back and he was shocked it was for sale for so long. He said it was special and cool AF, he was right. Glad you got it.

 

[Will Zach]

I was able to make some progress on the double stitching around the pockets that @Monitor pointed out as distinctive, and general style of the jacket. I noticed in recent @Blackadder post about getting a Lewis Holster repro jacket that it had the same double stitching and similar hem band (Blackadder's pic below):

Then I googled Lewis Holster and came up with this image from Rin Tanaka's book - same double stitching around pockets, similar jacket style, cuffs, etc. This one is a cop jacket:

And this one is mine, for comparison:

So a cop-style jacket, California, 50s. Come to think of it, the utilitarian leather patch at the neck (also present in some form on Rin's picture) to prevent wear indicates a cop jacket. No holes for the badge, though, so maybe just the cop style, not a cop jacket per se. Well, at least the double stitching is identified.

 

[Leather Walker]

Then I googled Lewis Holster and came up with this image from Rin Tanaka's book - same double stitching around pockets, similar jacket style, cuffs, etc. This one is a cop jacket:

View attachment 415262

So a cop-style jacket, California, 50s. Come to think of it, the utilitarian leather patch at the neck (also present in some form on Rin's picture) to prevent wear indicates a cop jacket. No holes for the badge, though, so maybe just the cop style, not a cop jacket per se. Well, at least the double stitching is identified.

Mystery solved!

And right now I just came across this (sold) jacket. Even it has the leather patch behind the collar, and double stitching around the pockets. Source.

 

[Will Zach]

Yep, the same. Custom, by a mystery manufacturer who did not like to put labels on their jackets. Thanks, @Leather Walker . Your searching skills are most impressive.

 

[Maverickson]

Hi All,

As luck would have it I own an almost exact model Monarch jacket. Compliments of forum member Terry MItchell who was kind enough to pass it along to me. Quite a unique jacket with upgraded sleeves which peaked my interest.

The sleeves on that jacket helped me create my half gusseted sleeves design & now incorporate that same feature in my upgraded new builds.

My jacket is sized as either 46 or 48 & seen below.

Unfortunately my jacket has had a zip replacement. Which makes it difficult to date this jacket. Especially since Monarch begun using this same label on their jackets beginning in the early 1940's.

However, their 1940's model labels were changed out sometime in the 50's with their last label version (they closed shop in 1957) as seen on my Monarch M/C jacket (compliments forum member Mysteryo) seen below.

Monarch's final label.

Like the previous referenced Monarch, they used a different type or non standard sleeve configuration with this cross zip m/c jacket. Basically, changed up and or increased the sleeve diameter where is meets the body.

Cheers, Dave

 

[steve u]

Dave,
Can you post a pic of the back of the m/c Jacket?

 

[Maverickson]

Hi Steve,
Nice action back but otherwise pretty plain. Above all a short body length by today's standards. But nothing that I can not remedy going forward.

Again, the sleeves are non standard in diameter where they attach to the body. .

If this same jacket had a slightly longer body from the factory I doubt that Mysteryo would have let this one go.

Cheers, Davew

 

[Will Zach]

Thanks Dave, very cool that my jacket could be a Monarch. Mine has no side cinches though. Could be a slightly different model, or a copy by a small maker. I am glad that the thread became quite insightful for a lot of people, and that we made progress...

 

[Will Zach]

Hi Steve,
Nice action back but otherwise pretty plain. Above all a short body length by today's standards. But nothing that I can not remedy going forward.

Again, the sleeves are non standard in diameter where they attach to the body. .

View attachment 418702

If this same jacket had a slightly longer body from the factory I doubt that Mysteryo would have let this one go.

Cheers, Davew

This jacket is sick.

 

[Maverickson]

Thanks Dave, very cool that my jacket could be a Monarch. Mine has no side cinches though. Could be a slightly different model, or a copy by a small maker. I am glad that the thread became quite insightful for a lot of people, and that we made progress...

Zach,

I'm almost positive your jacket was made by Monarch. Most notably maybe yours is missing side cinches but both look to have those half gusseted sleeves.

Those same sleeve gussets were used on early upgraded Beck Northeaster Flying Togs m/c jackets.



Cheers, Dave

 

[Will Zach]

Here's the same shot of the gusset in my jacket. Pattern of the gusset is slightly different, I am wondering if this is because your jacket is 46-48 and mine is 40 (or maybe even a 38). Same under-arm vent grommets, though.

 

[Maverickson]

Hi,

One in the same half gusseted Monarch sleeve assemblies. As it goes, each different size jacket requires it's very own sleeve configuration. Apparently they used a slightly too small a diameter sleeve assembly. Thus requiring that they move the entire sleeve assembly further outward by about 3/8" to achieve that needed additional circumference. to correctly fill the body's sleeve hole.

I have my own half gusseted sleeve design accurately configured to go from a size 36 through 52. Created by studying the best aspects of several vintage jacket makers (all from my personal collection) that utilized half gusseted sleeves to come up with my own version.

Moreover, If this sleeve design is either not built or attached incorrectly this same sleeve becomes a push me pull you. Basically it then becomes more of a hindrance than help.

If done correctly a wonderful upgrade. These same sleeve design dates the 1930's and 1940's. The earliest original jacket I own with half gusseted sleeves dates 1932. However, potential problems are more than likely the reason why this same sleeve design is no longer utilized for modern mass produced jackets.

Cheers, Dave

 

[Maverickson]

Thanks Dave, very cool that my jacket could be a Monarch. Mine has no side cinches though. Could be a slightly different model, or a copy by a small maker. I am glad that the thread became quite insightful for a lot of people, and that we made progress...

Cinch straps are a minor difference and easily altered.

My bet is that is that if you look under the repair job on your jacket's collar's yoke you will find where the original Monarch label was once was situated. Either having been removed with the repair or remains hidden beneath.

Cheers, Dave

 

[Biff42]

This is an eBay find, a jacket that has been around on eBay for a while, having been checked out and passed on by @JMax and @Marc mndt - too small for them. I have been looking for a vintage straight zip for a while (Cal etc), so I took a chance at this no-name Highwayman style jacket by sending an offer. The P2P measurement turned out to be correct - 21.5, but the sleeve was not 25" but rather 23" (good thing 23" works for me, particularly with 18.5" shoulder width). Hem is 17", so t-shirt only, but it works. Jacket is heavy stiff steerhide (weighs 5.2 lbs for a 38 size, so the heft is definitely there). The seller says it is a California jacket. Color is dark chocolate brown. It looks like it has hardly been used over the years. The design elements (collar, yoke, snap cuffs) all scream 1940s/1950s. The hardware (more on it later) also screams 1940s/1950s. But the smooth leather feels like a 5-year old Branded or Natal, hence my confusion. All 1940s/50s jackets I handled were gnarly and grainy (both horse and steer); this one is smooth and feels new. I really hope for input from vintage heads @JMax , @Marc mndt , @tmitchell59 , @jonbuilder , @Guppy , @AeroFan_07 , @Leigh H (sorry if I missed anyone) for their thoughts on the design of this jacket, age, maker...I will give my thoughts on the age/provenance at the end of this post.

On to pics:

The fit is good, maybe I need to work on my shoulders a bit to fill out the V-shape of the jacket, lol:

View attachment 413078


View attachment 413080

Hardware:

Main zip - the Talon box design and wire pull dates to 1940s (same as on @jonbuilder Star Glove), the teeth are more 1950s.

View attachment 413081

Pocket zips - Talon, dated by Dinerman to mid 1940s (https://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/dating-outerwear-by-zipper-design.73884/):

View attachment 413082

Snaps - United Carr, dated by Dinerman to mid 1940s (https://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/dating-clothes-by-snaps.75667/) - dots between United and Carr. First pic from Dinerman, second pic from the jacket:

View attachment 413084

View attachment 413085

Design elements - here's where it gets a bit weird:

The cream-colored patch to protect the neck area from wear is leather (no sign of wear):

View attachment 413086

Pockets are lined with leather (with stretch marks, so the maker consciously used "lower quality" leather for pocket lining:

View attachment 413087

Snap cuffs are typical 1940s/1950s, pristine:

View attachment 413088

So what do I think? I think it is a custom 1940s/1950s jacket (maybe a prototype). I think custom because of the leather neck wear protector and leather lining of the pockets. Mass makers would not use leather in these spots. But if you guys have seen these elements in other jackets (or will see in the future), please holler. I would love to place this jacket somehow. Thanks for reading.

I hope you kept this one. it's beautiful and looks custom-made for you. It's a very special jacket.

 

[Will Zach]

I hope you kept this one. it's beautiful and looks custom-made for you. It's a very special jacket.

I pulled a @ton312 and sold it.

 

[Biff42]

I pulled a @ton312 and sold it.

What! Thats crazy man, that was a perfect jacket.

 

[Will Zach]

What! Thats crazy man, that was a perfect jacket.

It was a little tight.

 

[Biff42]

It was a little tight.

I hear ya, if you're not going to grab it, let someone else enjoy it. I loved that jacket, doesn't sound like you settled on a maker, but suspected Monarch?

 

[Will Zach]

I hear ya, if you're not going to grab it, let someone else enjoy it. I loved that jacket, doesn't sound like you settled on a maker, but suspected Monarch?

Suspected a Monarch, but not so sure anymore. I have seen about three identical jackets, none with a label. A dead giveway is a strip of reinforcing yellow or brown leather on the inside of the collar, and double stitching around the pockets. I suspect a small custom maker who never labeled his jackets. Definitely 1950s.