Jacket Patterns

[Biff42]

Hey guys, quick question about patterns. What typically happens to the jacket patterns from old makers that went out of business? I know they were (and still are) considered intellectual property and usually closely guarded, but do patterns ever turn up for sale?

Did Japanese repro makers like RMC, Peter’s Tailor, and Block Bilt simply copy existing jacket designs, or were original patterns ever purchased or acquired?

It seems like a pattern from a sought-after maker would be extremely valuable—possibly even more so than a jacket from the same maker.

 

[jeo]

Highly doubt any survived. The patterns are in the jackets. John Chapman buys old beat up jackets, takes them apart and creates exact pattern reproductions. My Modoc is an example of that. He told me he can also do that without taking the jacket apart and get pretty darn close.

 

[Biff42]

Highly doubt any survived. The patterns are in the jackets. John Chapman buys old beat up jackets, takes them apart and creates exact pattern reproductions. My Modoc is an example of that. He told me he can also do that without taking the jacket apart and get pretty darn close.

Thanks @jeo I figured as much.

 

[BarryMcCockiner_PhD]

When I moved to New England for grad school, I fell in love with the region’s old industrial history, especially the leather and textile trades. For a short time, I lived near Everett Massachusetts, which was once home to some legendary makers, including Northeaster Flying Togs.

Like many industrial towns around Boston, Everett suffered badly when manufacturing left. Large parts of the area fell into disrepair, and over the years a lot of storage buildings and historic industrial structures were lost to fires or outright demolition. Everett has improved somewhat in the last decade, but much of that original fabric is gone for good.

I suspect this is just the reality of a century passing, patterns, records, and institutional memory quietly disappearing as companies folded and buildings vanished. Still, I can’t help but imagine that somewhere out there, maybe in a long-forgotten storage space between halfway houses and the newer breweries that have popped up, there could still be original jacket patterns or production records waiting to be rediscovered.

Probably wishful thinking...but it’s hard not to wonder.

 

[jchance]

I work in IP, so I deal with this question on a daily basis. You should think of incentives, that’s the driving force behind everything. Follow the money, they say.

Let’s say a jacket pattern is up for sale, who’s going to buy it? It’s a very small market for leather jackets, and one can simply copy another, with a slight tweak here and there.

You said “closely guarded” but how? A jacket can be taken apart easily and copied. That’s the process of reverse engineering. How about enforcing against copiers: do you sue them and take them to court? What do you get in return? For them to pony up their profits or for them to stop copying—maybe but the high lawyers’ fees are not worth the any gains from enforcement.

As an example, Etsy sellers sometimes sell stock jacket patterns for DIYers but the price is really low ($25/pattern for example, but after the sale, the pattern can be shared by the buyer freely). Given the minuscule incentive structure, there is essentially no IP protection re jacket pattern.

IP in fashion law is essentially nonexistent, except in really big cases with strong incentives.

 

[Biff42]

When I moved to New England for grad school, I fell in love with the region’s old industrial history, especially the leather and textile trades. For a short time, I lived near Everett Massachusetts, which was once home to some legendary makers, including Northeaster Flying Togs.

Like many industrial towns around Boston, Everett suffered badly when manufacturing left. Large parts of the area fell into disrepair, and over the years a lot of storage buildings and historic industrial structures were lost to fires or outright demolition. Everett has improved somewhat in the last decade, but much of that original fabric is gone for good.

I suspect this is just the reality of a century passing, patterns, records, and institutional memory quietly disappearing as companies folded and buildings vanished. Still, I can’t help but imagine that somewhere out there, maybe in a long-forgotten storage space between halfway houses and the newer breweries that have popped up, there could still be original jacket patterns or production records waiting to be rediscovered.

Probably wishful thinking...but it’s hard not to wonder.

I know, that's what I'm wondering! It'd be akin to finding a Superman #1 for a really famous maker.

When my wife's family immigrated to the USA from Greece in the early 1900s, they worked in textile and leather factories in Massachusetts.

 

[Biff42]

I work in IP, so I deal with this question on a daily basis. You should think of incentives, that’s the driving force behind everything. Follow the money, they say.

Let’s say a jacket pattern is up for sale, who’s going to buy it? It’s a very small market for leather jackets, and one can simply copy another, with a slight tweak here and there.

You said “closely guarded” but how? A jacket can be taken apart easily and copied. That’s the process of reverse engineering. How about enforcing against copiers: do you sue them and take them to court? What do you get in return? For them to pony up their profits or for them to stop copying—maybe but the high lawyers’ fees are not worth the any gains from enforcement.

As an example, Etsy sellers sometimes sell stock jacket patterns for DIYers but the price is really low ($25/pattern for example, but after the sale, the pattern can be shared freely). Given the minuscule incentive structure, there is essentially no IP protection re jacket pattern.

IP in fashion law is essentially nonexistent, except in really big cases with strong incentives.

Guarded from the point of view that if you called Stu from LW and asked him for a copy of a jacket pattern, I'm sure he'd laugh at you.

I understand you could reverse engineer a jacket accurately, but I believe there would be a marketing angle to say you created a jacket based on an "original" pattern.

Anyway, it's interesting to me to think about all the pattern work that must go into manufacturing jackets and what happened to it all.

 

[BarryMcCockiner_PhD]

Guarded from the point of view that if you called Stu from LW and asked him for a copy of a jacket pattern, I'm sure he'd laugh at you.

I understand you could reverse engineer a jacket accurately, but I believe there would be a marketing angle to say you created a jacket based on an "original" pattern.

Anyway, it's interesting to me to think about all the pattern work that must go into manufacturing jackets and what happened to it all.

I think the pattern is only one component. The other is around the leather itself. Much of the tanning knowhow and actual raw materials are no longer available. Horween themselves admitted a number of old school tanning recipes have been misplaced or lost during early record keeping. They have tried replicating some based on existing samples of material in their archives but ultimately failed.

 

[jchance]

I understand you could reverse engineer a jacket accurately, but I believe there would be a marketing angle to say you created a jacket based on an "original" pattern.

Is there really? As an example, let’s take a look at Levi’s purchase of Eistein’s 1930s leather jacket for $147,000 in 2016. Levi’s took it apart, copied it, and released 500 jackets in 2018. In 2025, Levi’s released 800 jackets. At about $1,000/jacket, based on the profit math, Levi’s seemingly hasn’t been able to recoup the purchase’s cost. And that was a case of copying an original jacket.

There’s also the recent purchase of Lewis Leather after Derek Harris passed away in 2025. What was purchased really? There’s the name brand with a long history and goodwill behind it, some existing patterns and original jackets. But look at Addict Leather in Japan, a complete copy of Lewis Leather by taking their jackets apart. There is essentially no IP protection for Lewis Leather jackets.

 

[Biff42]

Is there really? As an example, let’s take a look at Levi’s purchase of Eistein’s 1930s leather jacket for $147,000 in 2016. Levi’s took it apart, copied it, and released 500 jackets in 2018. In 2025, Levi’s released 800 jackets. At about $1,000/jacket, based on the profit math, Levi’s seemingly hasn’t been able to recoup the purchase’s cost. And that was a case of copying an original jacket.

There’s also the recent purchase of Lewis Leather after Derek Harris passed away in 2025. What was purchased really? There’s the name brand with a long history and goodwill behind it, some existing patterns and original jackets. But look at Addict Leather in Japan, a complete copy of Lewis Leather by taking their jackets apart. There is essentially no IP protection for Lewis Leather jackets.

Great points @jchance and cool story on Einstein's jacket.

 

[BarryMcCockiner_PhD]

Is there really? As an example, let’s take a look at Levi’s purchase of Eistein’s 1930s leather jacket for $147,000 in 2016. Levi’s took it apart, copied it, and released 500 jackets in 2018. In 2025, Levi’s released 800 jackets. At about $1,000/jacket, based on the profit math, Levi’s seemingly hasn’t been able to recoup the purchase’s cost. And that was a case of copying an original jacket.

There’s also the recent purchase of Lewis Leather after Derek Harris passed away in 2025. What was purchased really? There’s the name brand with a long history and goodwill behind it, some existing patterns and original jackets. But look at Addict Leather in Japan, a complete copy of Lewis Leather by taking their jackets apart. There is essentially no IP protection for Lewis Leather jackets.

I think this actually reinforces the point rather than undermining it.

You are right that jacket patterns themselves have essentially no meaningful IP protection. Anyone with enough skill can take apart a Lewis, Buco, or Beck and reproduce it. That has been true for a long time, and the existence of brands like Addict or the Japanese repro makers proves it.

But heritage outerwear has never really been an IP driven business. It is driven by marketing, history, and narrative.

Take the Levi’s example. Levi’s did not buy a 147k pattern when they acquired Einstein’s jacket. They bought provenance, press, cultural legitimacy, and a story they could attach to the brand. Whether the limited runs themselves recouped the purchase price misses the point. That jacket functioned as a marketing artifact and brand amplifier, not a profit center.

Same with Lewis Leathers. What was purchased after Derek Harris passed was not enforceable design IP. It was the name, the archive, the continuity, and the goodwill built over nearly a century. That history is what allows Lewis to operate in a different category than technically similar copies.

Addict makes excellent jackets, but they have to build their own story. Lewis already has one. That difference is the moat.

In this space, history is the product. The jacket is just the physical expression of it.

 

[Biff42]

I think the pattern is only one component. The other is around the leather itself. Much of the tanning knowhow and actual raw materials are no longer available. Horween themselves admitted a number of old school tanning recipes have been misplaced or lost during early record keeping. They have tried replicating some based on existing samples of material in their archives but ultimately failed.

Sounds like a similar problem that vintage guitar enthusiasts cite: that the wood used on older guitars came from old-growth trees and has qualities that cannot be 100% duplicated?

 

[AerGuitar]

What a great topic! I know that I would be over the moon to find a storage unit loaded with a full spectrum of graded patterns from a well known historical maker. That’s really all I have to add, haha.

 

[jeo]

For a short time, I lived near Everett Massachusetts, which was once home to some legendary makers, including Northeaster Flying Togs.

Beck was out of NY, not Massachusetts. Leathertogs was out of Everett.

 

[BarryMcCockiner_PhD]

Beck was out of NY, not Massachusetts. Leathertogs was out of Everett.

Oh did I say something about beck?

Since you bring it up, I think the Tanaka books conflated much of the history. Beck was just a label/distributor, the jackets were likely still made in Ma. There is also some odd tie in with Beck and Schott but I think this was dispelled by the Jason himself.

 

[AerGuitar]

Sounds like a similar problem that vintage guitar enthusiasts cite: that the wood used on older guitars came from old-growth trees and has qualities that cannot be 100% duplicated?

Guitars are another fun topic! I had the opportunity to play an original 1960 Les Paul burst for an hour or so, and it was phenomenal. Whether it was the lore, the hype in my mind, the aged old growth wood, the electronics, etc., the guitar played, sounded, and felt amazing. Would love to own one, but soooooo far outta my league. Unmatched by any $$$$$$$$ custom repro I’ve handled.
Pretty sure it was the PAF pickups, though! I owned(borrowed, technically) an original PAF bridge pickup for a couple of years which made any guitar I installed it in sound like gold. I wanted to cry when I had to give it back..

 

[jeo]

Oh did I say something about beck?

Since you bring it up, I think the Tanaka books conflated much of the history. Beck was just a label/distributor, the jackets were likely still made in Ma. There is also some odd tie in with Beck and Schott but I think this was dispelled by the Jason himself.

Yes, you did. Northeaster Flying Togs is Beck. They were out of NY.

It’s suspected that Leathertogs made jackets for Beck before the Beck/Schott partnership in mid 30’s and Schott started making jackets for Beck. There are multiple examples of Beck jackets with Perfecto labels. There are also examples of Perfecto boxes with Beck model numbers. Not sure what Jason said, but it’s in the Tanaka books and that information is correct.

 

[BarryMcCockiner_PhD]

Yes, you did. Northeaster Flying Togs is Beck. They were out of NY.

It’s suspected that Leathertogs made jackets for Beck before the Beck/Schott partnership in mid 30’s and Schott started making jackets for Beck. There are multiple examples of Beck jackets with Perfecto labels. There are also examples of Perfecto boxes with Beck model numbers. Not sure what Jason said, but it’s in the Tanaka books and that information is correct.

Let’s get this straight. Beck was a New York brand and distributor, period. That does not make every jacket with a Beck label a New York‑made jacket. Early Northeaster Flying Togs jackets were made by Leathertogs in Everett, Massachusetts, well before Schott ever partnered with Beck. Certainly, it’s possible the later Beck‑Schott relationship explains Beck‑labeled Perfectos and boxes, but it has nothing to do with the 1930s Northeaster Flying Togs. Saying “Northeaster Flying Togs is Beck and therefore New York made” completely misses how fragmented jacket manufacturing was at the time. Brand, distribution, and factory were often separate entities.

That is not controversial. That is just how the industry worked in the 1930s.

 

[Biff42]

Guitars are another fun topic! I had the opportunity to play an original 1960 Les Paul burst for an hour or so, and it was phenomenal. Whether it was the lore, the hype in my mind, the aged old growth wood, the electronics, etc., the guitar played, sounded, and felt amazing. Would love to own one, but soooooo far outta my league. Unmatched by any $$$$$$$$ custom repro I’ve handled.
Pretty sure it was the PAF pickups, though! I owned(borrowed, technically) an original PAF bridge pickup for a couple of years which made any guitar I installed it in sound like gold. I wanted to cry when I had to give it back..

I don't want to get off topic, but Rick Beato's (if you know who that is) studio is right down the road from me. I met him in person one time at a local park. He's a really nice dude.

His YouTube channel is where I get what little knowledge I have about guitars from.

 

[Harris HTM]

What do you get in return?

If I recall correctly this was also the case with Aero and their stolen patterns from another scotish brand. It was not worth it going to court for that, again IIRC.

When my wife's family immigrated to the USA from Greece in the early 1900s,

Cool, as I am also born and spent the first half of my life in GR and out of pure curiositu: any idea which part your wife's family comes from?

and it was phenomenal.

I can't say I know a lot about guitars, nor vintage jackets, but I know a thing or two about violins. And violins made in specific periods and from specific woods are indeed phenomenal.

Rick Beato's

I've learned a lot from this guy!