Graffiti on a church.

[sheeplady]

Please do read this, I am sure you may see that even the ten commandments appear in our National Government Buildings.....as well as many other references to the Bible......

The ten commandments are the basis for (at least) three major world religions. There is nothing exclusively Christian about them. If anything, use of the ten commandments rather than a specific part of the New Testament stands as evidence that the nation was being inclusive of all of these major religions and choosing to specifically *not* be a Christian nation.

 

[LoveMyHats2]

The ten commandments are the basis for (at least) three major world religions. There is nothing exclusively Christian about them. If anything, use of the ten commandments rather than a specific part of the New Testament stands as evidence that the nation was being inclusive of all of these major religions and choosing to specifically *not* be a Christian nation.

As I did state, it would be a long amount of text to write, but let me make it clear from my viewpoint, and use another example. You have 10 bus drivers that are also mechanics. They decide to design a mode of transportation new and different from what currently exists. A careful study of all their work, and how they applied their own knowledge and care into the new transportation would give an indication of their origin in what they do and how they think, their belief systems and base of knowledge.

While we can decide how many hundreds of religious factions existed in the USA even as it was forming, runs into dozens or hundreds. The majority of individuals that founded the USA were of a Christian based faith, and it would be highly doubtful, possible yes, but doubtful that the USA was founded upon individuals that would tend to desire to leave the beginning of the USA with a Buddhist flavor or Hindu. One can state freely that the way the USA was built is that the right to worship any way one does desire is just that, a right, the founding fathers debated many parts of the making of the US Constitution, of which has been twisted and stretched and pulled upon over the ages. The wisdom of input given seems to be at the time, they were well aware that to make anything severe in a preference would or could exclude a group or even a mere individual.

In public, many of the founding fathers refrained from allowing their own personal beliefs enter into policy at times, but the influence is very clear and the outcome even better. With all it's faults or frail parts, the United States is the leader of freedom. One may make a choice as to what a person may believe as to the nature of how our founding fathers felt, what we the main course of the direction of their personal belief systems were or how they kept things in order. Not to be into the politics of how things are then as compared to how they are now, but, I have often pondered what they would do as a group, if they could all be today and see what has happened to all the work they have done? I tend to think they would be fairly "miffed" to put it mildly and may well decide to arm themselves to "route out" many individuals that sit in elected positions.

One thing I am able to state clearly, the United States was indeed formed by good and inspired men and women.

 

[sheeplady]

As I did state, it would be a long amount of text to write, but let me make it clear from my viewpoint, and use another example. You have 10 bus drivers that are also mechanics. They decide to design a mode of transportation new and different from what currently exists. A careful study of all their work, and how they applied their own knowledge and care into the new transportation would give an indication of their origin in what they do and how they think, their belief systems and base of knowledge.

While we can decide how many hundreds of religious factions existed in the USA even as it was forming, runs into dozens or hundreds. The majority of individuals that founded the USA were of a Christian based faith, and it would be highly doubtful, possible yes, but doubtful that the USA was founded upon individuals that would tend to desire to leave the beginning of the USA with a Buddhist flavor or Hindu. One can state freely that the way the USA was built is that the right to worship any way one does desire is just that, a right, the founding fathers debated many parts of the making of the US Constitution, of which has been twisted and stretched and pulled upon over the ages. The wisdom of input given seems to be at the time, they were well aware that to make anything severe in a preference would or could exclude a group or even a mere individual.

In public, many of the founding fathers refrained from allowing their own personal beliefs enter into policy at times, but the influence is very clear and the outcome even better. With all it's faults or frail parts, the United States is the leader of freedom. One may make a choice as to what a person may believe as to the nature of how our founding fathers felt, what we the main course of the direction of their personal belief systems were or how they kept things in order. Not to be into the politics of how things are then as compared to how they are now, but, I have often pondered what they would do as a group, if they could all be today and see what has happened to all the work they have done? I tend to think they would be fairly "miffed" to put it mildly and may well decide to arm themselves to "route out" many individuals that sit in elected positions.

One thing I am able to state clearly, the United States was indeed formed by good and inspired men and women.

I'll admit that the majority of our founding fathers were Christian. That's a fact. It's perfectly reasonable that they were influenced by Christianity. But I really refuse to believe that they in any way intended the U.S. to be a Christian nation. There is absolutely no evidence of that in any of our founding documents. If they had held that belief so dearly, it would be in one of them, and it would be specific. These are individuals who went to the trouble of negotiating the worth of slaves for representation; when they themselves were strongly divided as if they would allow slavery to continue. If they spent all the time and writing on that (a relative detail compared to founding a nation based upon religion) it would at least be worth a line to say something that amounted to "based upon our Christian ideals..."

As for the goodness of the founding men and women, I really think some of their activities deserve praise while others do not. We have some shameful things in our history. I certainly do not find some of the activities of the founding fathers to be praise worthy, or quite frankly, good behavior in the eyes of anyone, regardless of religion.

 

[scotrace]

Woah, kids. This is getting pretty far afield.

 

[LoveMyHats2]

Jefferson's wrote frequently and affectionately to hos daughter, Martha Jefferson Randolph. His grandson, Thomas Randolph edited the first collection of his letters in 1829. Several further collections were published during the next century, the most complete being the Princeton edition of 1950. A quick perusal of the index to that edition does not indicate the existence of such a letter, though it does appear in literature promoted by "Wall Builders", hardly a reliable source.

Right before I joined the US Navy, my Father owned a Machine company that was eventually purchased and given contracts to the Military, at the time it was MicroBore, a division of AeroJet General, which was a fairly large manufacturing company and in whole they made many things including bicycle and automotive tires, aircraft tires and appliances. However the MicroBore division was a machine shop that produced parts made within a millionth of an inch tolerance, mostly for space/nasa/naval application. Withing the first year of my being in the US Navy, MicroBore was contracted to making parts for a rocket powered torpedo, for US Navy use, and the performance of that torpedo was amazingly beyond any other in use. When I had my Father send me the specs and some diagrams and pictures of this torpedo being manufactured I was very impressed, and as one ship I was eventually stationed on, I had a conversation with one of the torpedo men that was stationed on board. Within the conversation I was called a liar, that no such torpedo existed, as the ship I was on did not have them and this individual was a life time Military man, with almost 20 years in service...until I sat down and gave him what my Father had given to me, a total apology was rendered by this fellow to me.

I could not recall the model of that torpedo, been a long time, but the information that was factual was something I never forgot. In having examined records of meetings that most of the founding fathers had taken, rest assured they prayed and in the mindset of being a group or individual they had one "habit" if you will or want to call it that, of opening or closing or both, the meeting they had in working on the US Constitution with a prayer and more than not, that prayer had what one could label as an ending with "in the name of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ". I am not sure how hard it would be for someone of other than a Christian oriented faith would find it to have some knowledge or personal understanding that these men were greatly influenced in all they did by their own faith...no more than if something of such a magnitude was placed into History and design by a group of men that were say, in the Eastern part of the world and taught or made things that would lean towards their religious belief systems such as Buddhist monk or Hindu. In fact the rest of the world fairly much views our Nation as such being a Christian based society, thus some of what makes the use of "Western Religion vs. Eastern Religion" and not meant that there is a war between one or another in that statement I just made, like a fight between the champ and contender, just to make it clear.
Not sure what a wall builder reference means, although I know what it is to build a hospital, church, mall, etc. as part of my 60 some odd years of life have given me that as a career.

 

[LoveMyHats2]

Woah, kids. This is getting pretty far afield.

Well then we must kick the ball in a new direction, sir, myself mostly! Thanks!

 

[Widebrim]

But I really refuse to believe that they in any way intended the U.S. to be a Christian nation. There is absolutely no evidence of that in any of our founding documents. If they had held that belief so dearly, it would be in one of them, and it would be specific.

Even though we are getting back to topic, I just wanted to say that sheeplady is right about this. Even though there were some people, particularly those of a "Covenantal" viewpoint, that wanted to make the United States a theocracy (which is un-biblical, since we are not ancient Israel), the great majority of the Founding Fathers wisely chose not to have a federal religion. However, the choice of having a state religion was left within the power of the 13 original states, but they also wisely eventually jettisoned that option. Even though the U.S. Supreme Court twice ruled that we are a Christian nation (but which they likely meant that the majority of citizens claimed to be Christians, and that our country had been greatly influenced by said faith), the Constitution absolutely does not establish a federal religion...

 

[Widebrim]

...Okay, John, have the police made any headway into who wrote the graffiti on your congregation's building?

 

[ThemThereEyes]

I too would like to know if they are caught and how they may be made to pay for the crime.

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

Theological debate aside, I think we should get back to the crux of the thread which is about the oxygen-wasting scum who vandalised John's church. As I've said before, the perpetrators should be very glad that it isn't up to me because if it were...

I'm sorry but this really chaps my hide as my own property had been vandalised on at least two occasions.

 

[LizzieMaine]

I strongly endorse a product called "Goof Off," which comes in a spray can at your local hardware store. We got tagged at the theatre last summer by some punk with spray paint, and a squirt of this stuff and a bit of wire brushing and it came right off without leaving a trace. The trick is to get it off before it's had time to penetrate into the surface, so do it as soon as you can after noticing the vandalism. Take a photo of it first, though, for the police.

 

[vitanola]

Ah!

The ever sensible and practical Miss Maine has made what I believe is the only truly useful posting in this thread!

 

[ThemThereEyes]

Theological debate aside, I think we should get back to the crux of the thread which is about the oxygen-wasting scum who vandalised John's church. As I've said before, the perpetrators should be very glad that it isn't up to me because if it were...

I'm sorry but this really chaps my hide as my own property had been vandalised on at least two occasions.

No reason to state you're sorry. What you stated is perfectly reasonable. Too many people have utter disregard for other people's property. Whether it's vandalism, or unintentional damage, it's horrid to be frivolous about damaging someone's property.

 

[The Good]

That's awful. Sorry that happened to your church. I agree that this could be considered a hate crime.

 

[John in Covina]

When I was in school, classmates would occasionally draw a swastika on their papers, desk, and backpacks. Was it because they were affiliated with the NAZI party? No, they actually did it to try to gain a rise from people, as the topic was WWII, and because they thought it was fun.

Just because someone wears all red does NOT mean they are part of the 'Blood Gang', or if someone wears 3 piece suits everyday, and carries a concealed firearm does not mean they are part of the MOB.

By drawing, tagging, speaking of, or wearing a SYMBOL does NOT mean you are affiliated in any way, shape, or form.

You are what you do.

 

[John in Covina]

...Okay, John, have the police made any headway into who wrote the graffiti on your congregation's building?

Chances are L.E. will find them if they parading at the donut stand. Will they fingerprint the paint bottle, I don't know. Will that lead them to some one with fingerprints on record some place? Yes if they select mine, I picked up the bottle. If they are xtrodinary lucky they will stumble into some one doing a similar thing to another church, or some one will witness them doing it and can give names or good descriptions. Not that it can't happen but I am not holding my breath. Justice is a grind that runs very slow sometimes. I figure that if they continue the way they are going, the kid or kids that did this will eventually do something they will get caught for.

 

[John in Covina]

INFIDEL (noun): In New York, one who does not believe in the Christian religion. In Constantinople, one who does.
--- Ambrose Bierce.

i thought that Constantiople was an HQ for the Orthodox side of Christianity.

 

[John in Covina]

The ten commandments are the basis for (at least) three major world religions. There is nothing exclusively Christian about them. If anything, use of the ten commandments rather than a specific part of the New Testament stands as evidence that the nation was being inclusive of all of these major religions and choosing to specifically *not* be a Christian nation.

there is a difference between theist nation and a theocracy, the FF's wanted people to be religeous but not that there be a government religion. The writings outside of the formational documents showd that they regarded having religeous beliefs as a curb to evil and a boon to better morals.

 

[John in Covina]

I strongly endorse a product called "Goof Off," which comes in a spray can at your local hardware store. We got tagged at the theatre last summer by some punk with spray paint, and a squirt of this stuff and a bit of wire brushing and it came right off without leaving a trace. The trick is to get it off before it's had time to penetrate into the surface, so do it as soon as you can after noticing the vandalism. Take a photo of it first, though, for the police.

Unfortunately it is on STUCCCO ( Oh how you can get stucco!) That means it soaked in when being applied. We will most likely first use the pressure washer and then paint over it.

Goof Off, I have been using this stuff for better than 20 years, It is a whiz at getting some things out or off. I used it about a week ag on some lable adhesive that stuck to the linoleum.

 

[Widebrim]

i thought that Constantiople was an HQ for the Orthodox side of Christianity.

It is, for Greek Orthodoxy, but Bierce was referring to it being the HQ of the Port (Ottoman Empire).