Graffiti on a church.

[HoosierDaddy]

Yep. Spare the rod and spoil the child. Words of wisdom. All these other grey areas insures most often that we all must suffer for the unwillingness. I think I only 'spanked' my Son a few times when he was little. Then he knew that he could go only so far..and what could/would happen. Disliked needing to do it..but I would be cheating him if I took it off the table. I never could understand those who bargain with long drawn out lessons that never seem to end...or screaming at their kids continuously like they dislike their actions and must always surely show everyone within earshot how upsetting it is.
My Son(18) and I are now the best of friends with a loving relationship. He respects and looks up to me...and with that I respect and listen to him.
HD

 

[John in Covina]

I think you guys are on to something. In a culture where a thief has a hand chopped off, and a slanderer and/or blasphemer has his tongue cut out, we can bet that adultery would be all but unheard of.

Funny thing is in those cultures they rape women and then kill them for adultry.
On PBS they have been showing a lot f news about protests in India about really bad treatment of women and the news out of the ME continues with all sorts of news items about women being 3rd class citizens, valued a little below the car and the washer dryer.

 

[LizzieMaine]

But hey, they work cheap over there.

 

[tonyb]

...

In theory it is possible to have a crime-free society, though it would be a challenge finding many people willing to bow to the level of authoritarianism and brutality that it would require.

Zackly.

I've heard it said that the severity of the consequences for crime may not deter the would-be violator so much as the certainty of those consequences. After all, if a person is highly confident he'll never suffer those consequences (because he won't be found out), their severity matters little.

Overall crime rates having been on a slow but steady decline for a number of years. What people attribute this to often tells us more about them than crime. The reasons are many and interrelated, so woe be the researcher who attempts to examine any in isolation, and woe be us if we believe there could ever be but one answer.

Still, I gotta think that the explosion in surveillance has more than a little to do with it. All but the stupidest and/or terribly disturbed would-be criminal knows he can't be seen doing the evil deed, nor even make himself known to have been in its proximity. These days, the typical American has his or her image captured many, many times whenever he or she ventures far outside the (relative) privacy of home. (I hear that's the case over on your part of the planet as well, Edward.) Hell, my next-door neighbor installed a video surveillance system at his house. Didn't cost a helluva lot, either.

Me, I've never been a burglar (been victimized by 'em, though), nor a graffitist, but I would hope that it I was, I'd be good enough at it to avoid hitting a place where I knew my picture would be taken. That's getting to be more than a few places, with more added daily.

 

[John in Covina]

Yep. Spare the rod and spoil the child. Words of wisdom. All these other grey areas insures most often that we all must suffer for the unwillingness. I think I only 'spanked' my Son a few times when he was little. Then he knew that he could go only so far..and what could/would happen. Disliked needing to do it..but I would be cheating him if I took it off the table. I never could understand those who bargain with long drawn out lessons that never seem to end...or screaming at their kids continuously like they dislike their actions and must always surely show everyone within earshot how upsetting it is.
My Son(18) and I are now the best of friends with a loving relationship. He respects and looks up to me...and with that I respect and listen to him. HD

The problem is that people don't understand the difference between that type of spanking (more for shock and awe to get attention than harm or hurt) and beating someone to create overwhelming pain and traumatic experience thyat results in couch time...

I got a few spankings and I can say I remember them and what i did that resulted in them. man did i work hard to push my parents buttons because they were increadibly patient.

 

[John in Covina]

In theory it is possible to have a crime-free society, though it would be a challenge finding many people willing to bow to the level of authoritarianism and brutality that it would require.

There would be somebody (a small percentage) that would still break the laws, in spite of how horrible the punishment would be. It's a bell curve thing.

 

[sheeplady]

I think that anyone who idealizes Sharia law needs to have their head examined. I'll thankfully trade a bit more stealing and robbery than to be stoned to death for sleeping with the person I'm engaged to. It's funny, but when they punish someone for adultery (like in the case I mentioned) it's always the woman who gets stoned. And anyone who thinks individuals in those countries don't drink has never been to Saudi Arabia.

India is not under Sharia law, they have their own set of issues.

 

[HoosierDaddy]

The problem is that people don't understand the difference between that type of spanking (more for shock and awe to get attention than harm or hurt) and beating someone to create overwhelming pain and traumatic experience that results in couch time...

I see it a little differently...'The problem is that some people don't WANT to understand the difference'.

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

I think that anyone who idealizes Sharia law needs to have their head examined. I'll thankfully trade a bit more stealing and robbery than to be stoned to death for sleeping with the person I'm engaged to. It's funny, but when they punish someone for adultery (like in the case I mentioned) it's always the woman who gets stoned. And anyone who thinks individuals in those countries don't drink has never been to Saudi Arabia.

India is not under Sharia law, they have their own set of issues.

I remember reading about how the 9-11 hijackers spent their last days hanging out in strip clubs. And at one of the motels where they stayed they complained to the manager about a painting of a nun that was in their room which they found offensive and demanded that it be covered or removed while at the same time were ogling the female guests from their balcony.

 

[John in Covina]

I think it's substantially different. Satanists haven't wiped out millions of Christians in systematic acts of unbelievable cruelty in the past 100 years. It's unlikely that you have a direct family member who was killed by a Satanist just because they were Christian. Most Jewish people have at least one direct ancestor who was killed or interned by the Nazis. It's comparing a symbol that represents hatred and mass genocide to some symbols that (while upsetting, I am sure) have no where near the amount of murder and systematic hatred invoked.

When a Jewish person finds a Swastika on their home or their place of worship, not only is that indicating a hatred of the religion in question, but it's also indicating that vandal admires the genocide of the Jews, and in some cases, is suggesting further genocide starting with the people in that temple or home. I doubt you felt personally unsafe in the days following the graffiti incident. I have known Jewish individuals who have been made to feel like their life is in danger.

I'm glad to find out there was no hatred involved and I should not fear anymore problems at my church.
We've had enough break ins, but I'm glad to know i should no be at all fearful that i might surprise a burgular and get hurt. I should be proud that these lovely wonderful people have chosen to steal from us and vandalise in such a clearly loving manner.

Kinda brings a tear to my eye.

 

[sheeplady]

I'm glad to find out there was no hatred involved and I should not fear anymore problems at my church.
We've had enough break ins, but I'm glad to know i should no be at all fearful that i might surprise a burgular and get hurt. I should be proud that these lovely wonderful people have chosen to steal from us and vandalise in such a clearly loving manner.

Kinda brings a tear to my eye.

That's not what I meant at all, and I think you realize that. You have made no suggestions that someone is targeting your church members personally, such as following them home, assaulting them, using slurs, etc. You stated there was some graffiti on the church. I said nothing about you not having to worry about it happening again. I said nothing about it being a kind act.

If you or members of your congregation are being followed, harassed, abused, threatened with genocide, then I am truly sorry.

I stand by my point that if you have not been threatened with genocide, you are not in the same positions as a Jewish person who has had a Swastika painted on their home. The fact that your rights have been violated are clear, but quite frankly, your rights haven't been violated nearly as much as someone who is being threatened with genocide and annihilation. You seem to be making light of the holocaust and the trauma it caused to it's survivors by doing so.

 

[John in Covina]

That's not what I meant at all, and I think you realize that. You have made no suggestions that someone is targeting your church members personally, such as following them home, assaulting them, using slurs, etc. You stated there was some graffiti on the church. I said nothing about you not having to worry about it happening again. I said nothing about it being a kind act.

If you or members of your congregation are being followed, harassed, abused, threatened with genocide, then I am truly sorry.

I stand by my point that if you have not been threatened with genocide, you are not in the same positions as a Jewish person who has had a Swastika painted on their home. The fact that your rights have been violated are clear, but quite frankly, your rights haven't been violated nearly as much as someone who is being threatened with genocide and annihilation. You seem to be making light of the holocaust and the trauma it caused to it's survivors by doing so.

Wow, if you got that from what I wrote you are seriously misguided.

I think you are making light of what happened to my church, trivializing it. Turning it it to some sort of what light hearted prank.

You don't see the concept of opposites here.

My family on both sides come from Europe and they lived under the invasion rule and retribution of the Nazis. I don't make light of their actions.

 

[sheeplady]

Wow, if you got that from what I wrote you are seriously misguided.

I think you are making light of what happened to my church, trivializing it. Turning it it to some sort of what light hearted p

I am not. There is nothing to suggest that I find this funny or trivial nor have I said anything to that amount. Re-read what I wrote and find one sentence where I made it sound trivial and supported this gesture by these vandals.

You suggested that seeing these Satanic symbols on your church are the same thing as Swastikas on a temple to a Jewish person. Put yourself in the place of a holocaust survivor who saw their family and friends brutally murdered in the holocaust. If you feel the Satanic symbol on the church brings up as much pain and sheer terror for you as it does for that survivor, I am sorry. But honestly, I don't think it does.

Suggesting that you don't feel as threatened as that survivor does not mean that you are not threatened. It does not mean that you have not been wronged. However, suggesting that the survivor does not have the right to feel personally threatened by the use of a Swastika in a much deeper way because they survived the greatest genocide in recent history is making light of their experience. By saying that the Swastika on a temple is the same as a Satanic symbol on a church is making light of those survivors very legitimate feelings and experiences.

 

[Feraud]

Perhaps some don't want to see the difference...

 

[sheeplady]

Perhaps some don't want to see the difference...

That's just something I don't understand why people would feel that way. I've known a number of holocaust survivors in my life (most were children or quite young) and people who escaped being interned. (One of my father's coworkers had a tattoo on her forearm from the camps and she is one of the few I've met who was ever willing to even gloss on her experiences. The rest of the people I know survived, but they never spoke beyond where they were interned and who they lost.) I never ever want to have to live with anything close to that. I don't blame those people for being so very hurt and feel terrorized if they are threatened with Nazi symbols. I'd probably have a mental breakdown if I survived something like that and my temple got Swastika-ed when I thought I was safe in another country.

 

[HoosierDaddy]

Wow, if you got that from what I wrote you are seriously misguided.

I think you are making light of what happened to my church, trivializing it. Turning it it to some sort of what light hearted prank.

You don't see the concept of opposites here.

My family on both sides come from Europe and they lived under the invasion rule and retribution of the Nazis. I don't make light of their actions.

I don't think you need to explain yourself,John. This thread is going in the same direction as some others in over analyzing acts/behavior to only express another insistant point of view. No one knows who disgraced your church or why...but it wasn't really that bad. Surely only childish behavior. Shouldn't really mean that much within the scheme of things. Coulda been worse! Swatikas or KKK in certain places would have been much more Hellacious than a Christian church getting upset over just a little Satanic spray paint prank. Good Satanists or even bad Satanists wouldn't do something like that(some Christians might). Therefore the symbols are just juvenile and silly..and should be taken that way.
Sadly an all too familiar theme.
HD

 

[Maguire]

On the point of sharia law and such- Saudi arabia's Wahabism is notoriously hypocritical, its a strict, literal interpretation, but approached in such a legalistic way that one can always find holes to take advantage. That said the whole idea that people are regularly chopped up and the like isn't really true either, there are horror stories in the ME, pakistan, India, etc, regarding say, some arranged marriage or whatnot regarding their penal code, but really, ,many of these cases are either taken out of context by western media or exceptional even by the standards of the area. Sharia law itself only prescribes the death penalty for two things which would differ from our old religious laws- in most things its not that far removed from most of our laws- i'm not an Islamic scholar, but I've read the Qur'an, a good number of the hadiths, and really don't see much to be concerned with.

Whoever mentioned the 9/11 hijackers being at strip clubs btw, they were following the Takfiri where they were concealing their being Muslim, or in their case, their actual views, in order to "blend in". Who's going to suspect the porn hound to be a secret fundamentalist? In those circumstances in some sects, it is permissible to do things that are haram like say, eat pork, drink, or whatnot so as to protect oneself from exposure.

edward- i think in the cases you described context should be taken into account, i don't believe some little bar fight should result in anything but everyone just brushing off and going home, if serious injury comes out of it, that is different. If someone makes a pass at your woman or acts in a provocative way, then sure, thats different than rushing up on someone and beating them up for kicks, and should be treated differently. I know we get then down the slope of what constitutes provocation, or whatnot- and i dont say we blame the victim, but someone making say, a sexual gesture at your wife or your son/daughter/mother getting their ears boxed is certainly more excusable and understandable than punching a woman in the face because she is camp jacob and you are camp edward.

 

[LizzieMaine]

I don't think you need to explain yourself,John. This thread is going in the same direction as some others in over analyzing acts/behavior to only express another insistant point of view. No one knows who disgraced your church or why...but it wasn't really that bad. Surely only childish behavior. Shouldn't really mean that much within the scheme of things. Coulda been worse! Swatikas or KKK in certain places would have been much more Hellacious than a Christian church getting upset over just a little Satanic spray paint prank. Good Satanists or even bad Satanists wouldn't do something like that(some Christians might). Therefore the symbols are just juvenile and silly..and should be taken that way.
Sadly an all too familiar theme.
HD

A well-placed set of surveillance cameras can make a big difference in putting a stop to this kind of behavior. People who are stupid enough to do this kind of vandalism are rarely smart enough to do it with a mask or a disguise on.

When they're caught, hopefully the book will be thrown at them hard.

 

[Widebrim]

Organized religion...LOLALLDAYLOL!!!

LolUnproductiveCommentsLol...

 

[Hemingway Jones]

This thread seams to have run its course. Move along, nothing more to see here.