Graffiti on a church.

[LoveMyHats2]

So, this is his personal prayer for the country which appears in a religious organization that he belongs to... that is not nearly the same thing as it appearing on a national building or in the constitution sanctioned by the state.

http://www.allabouthistory.org/spiritual-heritage-and-government-monuments-faq.htm

Please do read this, I am sure you may see that even the ten commandments appear in our National Government Buildings.....as well as many other references to the Bible......

 

[Edward]

Fascinating. Same way the Vulcan Salute that Mr. Spock is always giving is actually a Jewish gesture, used in rabbinical blessings.

When I was growing up we had a very religious neighbor who refused to patronize our gas station. We were friendly with them, and couldn't understand why -- until they pointed to the Texaco sign out front. "The five pointed star is a Satanic symbol," they explained in all seriousness. There's just no way to answer that kind of reasoning.

I would suggest you are being rather over-generous to call it "reasoning".

 

[ThemThereEyes]

Fascinating. Same way the Vulcan Salute that Mr. Spock is always giving is actually a Jewish gesture, used in rabbinical blessings.

When I was growing up we had a very religious neighbor who refused to patronize our gas station. We were friendly with them, and couldn't understand why -- until they pointed to the Texaco sign out front. "The five pointed star is Satanic symbol," they explained in all seriousness. There's just no way to answer that kind of reasoning.

Just so!
I never knew that about Dr. Spock's V! Interesting, and I love learning something new.
I do hate that a pentacle gets confused with Satanism. Of course that was the star of Texas, and people confuse pagans' pentacles as Satanic. Pagans may believe in the existence of evil, but not Satan and don't worship trees.

 

[LoveMyHats2]

Just so!
I never knew that about Dr. Spock's V! Interesting, and I love learning something new.
I do hate that a pentacle gets confused with Satanism. Of course that was the star of Texas, and people confuse pagans' pentacles as Satanic. Pagans may believe in the existence of evil, but not Satan and don't worship trees.

I don't know but it maybe when "Spock" was making the V sign, that the intent was not to connect it to any known form of religion, of our time period,but based upon a future based unknown space sort of thing to do with the planet, Vulcan.

The symbol of a star connects in man's history with more than one meaning during the course of history as does the symbol of what we know as a swastika. Oddly Hitler decided to use it for his own reasons, which were not at all what it was originally known for.

However, for me to give anyone the freedom of having their own religion and or to even not have a faith, is something each person has the right to do, as it has already been touched upon in this thread, it is a personal thing between each person and whom they elect to worship or not worship. And in the United States, it is a right of all citizens to do so. Some married couples may have a different faith, as I am sure it is not uncommon, but for the majority it would appear that it is wrong to defile anyone's place of worship, or for that matter to take it upon themselves to destroy or tamper with anyone's property.

In other threads here, on the Lounge, it is noted that it just seems that the lack of respect grows and it would be very nice if something could be done to educate socially a better way to think and act so that there would be more respect and care from one person to another. Look at the thread on the topic of doing a good deed lately....when you read what people have done for someone else, sure is much sweeter and wonderful than to know some idiot went out and painted a church or robbed a bank or shot up a school or mall. It seems that slowly every year things that were not acceptable behavior becomes a little more acceptable by society with time. I know I am far from perfect as a person, but geez, I was sure taught and have lived my life to respect others and respect what does belong to me and to respect other people's property.

 

[vitanola]

I would have to attend writing about twenty pages here on this topic, however, each of the founding fathers had prayers and debated what and how to base the Constitution so it would allow the total freedom of religion. Make no mistake, if you study what they all did, they were all seemingly very inspired by God, ending most of their prayers "in the name of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ", and very clearly were not in prayer to the lord of the tree trunk in the south pole, and opened and closed almost every single meeting they had as groups or in private when working on the building of the United States, with a prayer. I cannot think they were praying to a God of any other venue, or there would be no mention of Jesus Christ in what they prayed, or is there something that would connect it all better for anyone to think of it?

Thomas Jefferson left his family some writings that go into great details of each of the founding father's belief and how they worked on the making of the USA and his own deep rooted faith. In his later years, he had some intense conversations with his family members. To say the USA is not based upon a premise of Christ, of God, to me and for me, would like being said the Eiffel Tower is not located in Paris. It is even beyond that, it is open for ALL people to have a faith of which they choose. " A Charity that magnifies all good things in the eyes of the Lord".

And the words, Of God or God do appear on all the major buildings and monuments all throughout the capital. Based upon not being Sherlock Holmes but in knowing the basic foundation of the founding father's beliefs, I find it very easy to make a safe bet they connected the word God to the God of which most Christian based faiths know and understand.

Actually, I probably am more familiar with the subject, having done some pretty extensive research on original sources (thousands of turgid eighteenth and nineteenth century sermons, for example) for my thesis "Armianism, Unitarianism, and Reason- The Enlightenment in the New World".

As far as the Thomas Jefferson "family writings", as I understand it they first appear in David Barton's work, which was found to be a fraud even by its Christian publisher Thomas Nelson, and was withdrawn by them as a fraud.

Rather like the historians who claim that our economy was in worse condition in 1936 than it was in 1932. If one must lie to support one's position, perhaps that position could bear some re-thinking.

 

[fashion frank]

Too bad. Sounds like kids doing dumb-shit, like kids tend to. The same kids that kick over headstones in graveyards etc. I don't know what possesses people, but lack of good parenting is most likely in the mix …

Baron Kurtz I'm with you on this one .

As an aside I can tell you when I was a kid if you did that and got caught , first the local cops would kick the s&$t out of you and then you prayed your folks didn't find out because the next a** kicking was by your old man if he found out.

But of course now a days if the cops do that it's called police brutality and if your old man warms your hide the child will turn them in to child services.
What the hell is going on in this country now a days , it makes me sick!

All the Best , Fashion Frank

 

[LoveMyHats2]

But that's at the root of all religious difference. Say someone doesn't believe that your particular prophets/deities/idols/call them what you will are the true bringers of truth. To them, you might as well be worshipping a tree stump … there is no difference between a false prophet and a tree stump, other than the damage they can cause to those who believe in them (so goes the argument of those who believe in a different prophet).

I agree with that Baron, for me I would not state you have no right to worship a tree stump, but my own personal opinion would be I would not find it something I would consider worshiping. There are so many different religions now, one could spend a life time to study them all, if not more....and as such, for me, not for you or anyone else, if someone tells me they worship and pray to a 1959 Cadillac, then they have the right to do so, but privately I am determining it a waste of time. If the case did arise that someone had a 1959 Cadillac and they were wanting to pray and worship it, I would not go out and desire to paint it, beat on it, set it on fire, shoot it, or the person doing the worshiping. In fact, if the car was rather nice, I may ask if they had an interest in selling it, as it is a lovely desirable car to own!

 

[ThemThereEyes]

I don't know but it maybe when "Spock" was making the V sign, that the intent was not to connect it to any known form of religion, of our time period,but based upon a future based unknown space sort of thing to do with the planet, Vulcan.

The symbol of a star connects in man's history with more than one meaning during the course of history as does the symbol of what we know as a swastika. Oddly Hitler decided to use it for his own reasons, which were not at all what it was originally known for.

However, for me to give anyone the freedom of having their own religion and or to even not have a faith, is something each person has the right to do, as it has already been touched upon in this thread, it is a personal thing between each person and whom they elect to worship or not worship. And in the United States, it is a right of all citizens to do so. Some married couples may have a different faith, as I am sure it is not uncommon, but for the majority it would appear that it is wrong to defile anyone's place of worship, or for that matter to take it upon themselves to destroy or tamper with anyone's property.

In other threads here, on the Lounge, it is noted that it just seems that the lack of respect grows and it would be very nice if something could be done to educate socially a better way to think and act so that there would be more respect and care from one person to another. Look at the thread on the topic of doing a good deed lately....when you read what people have done for someone else, sure is much sweeter and wonderful than to know some idiot went out and painted a church or robbed a bank or shot up a school or mall. It seems that slowly every year things that were not acceptable behavior becomes a little more acceptable by society with time. I know I am far from perfect as a person, but geez, I was sure taught and have lived my life to respect others and respect what does belong to me and to respect other people's property.

I am not sure where you are getting that I or anyone else here approves of defiling any place of worship. Nor do I understand why you think anyone here is being disrespectful, or arguing your right to an opinion.
As for the Vulcan signs, etc, we are merely discussing things in pop culture which many people don't know exist outside of that source with non-fictional meaning.
About the swastika, I know: http://www.worldofjainism.com/images/symbol2.jpg

 

[Feraud]

I prefer the old New England approach to religion -- it's an intensely personal matter, and purely one's own business. I don't try to push my beliefs on anyone else, and my opinion of religious beliefs that differ from my own is completely irrelevant, because they're none of my business. Just as my beliefs are nobody else's business. As long as the peace of the community is maintained and nobody's being forced into anything, minding one's own business seems the best way to go.

We could all use a good dose of the New England approach to religion.

 

[LoveMyHats2]

Actually, I probably am more familiar with the subject, having done some pretty extensive research on original sources (thousands of turgid eighteenth and nineteenth century sermons, for example) for my thesis "Armianism, Unitarianism, and Reason- The Enlightenment in the New World".

As far as the Thomas Jefferson "family writings", as I understand it they first appear in David Barton's work, which was found to be a fraud even by its Christian publisher Thomas Nelson, and was withdrawn by them as a fraud.

Rather like the historians who claim that our economy was in worse condition in 1936 than it was in 1932. If one must lie to support one's position, perhaps that position could bear some re-thinking.

Along my 60 years worth of living on this Planet we do call earth, I have found there are always more than one side or source for a topic or issue. One thing no "author" can derive to succumb to fictional or physical change are the minutes and records of the meeting of our founding fathers, of which the writer you make mention of, David Barton, and the other, Thomas Nelson, neither quote, nor foot note to, nor refer to in any of their works. Such records and writings are something a person interested in knowing the record of that time period would relish investigating if they desired to know the mindset of what was developing the United States. However when I was merely 22 years old, I did read a publication what was written by a family member of Thomas Jefferson, of whom Thomas Jefferson was this individual's father. I would place more stock in that account of what was stated there, then in someone else's accounting. Just as we all do know Washington never cut down a cheery tree as depicted in the myth, however, he was known to do business honestly.

In the travels of Benjamin Franklin, he was a sharp business man and statesmen, and from my memory of when I attended college and a university working on my Juris Doctorate recall reading about how he would visit the various religious beliefs to not only keep in mind what they followed as a teaching or gospel, but also to take printing orders or to sell printing supplies, as he was a great business man, and one of the wealthiest founders of our Nation. I cannot quote you what books I have read title wise, almost 40 years later, but I do not forget information taken in.

 

[LoveMyHats2]

I am not sure where you are getting that I or anyone else here approves of defiling any place of worship. Nor do I understand why you think anyone here is being disrespectful, or arguing your right to an opinion.
As for the Vulcan signs, etc, we are merely discussing things in pop culture which many people don't know exist outside of that source with non-fictional meaning.
About the swastika, I know: http://www.worldofjainism.com/images/symbol2.jpg

No. I do not debate as you are thinking I am. My statement about the Spock issue is simple that it may not have been a "known" religious reason for being a part of a television show.....period. And no, I am not stating anyone is being in desire to go out and do some stupid things to others property or to disrespect a belief or a religion or that anyone here is directing their posts to such a behavior. I do not see any connection at all to any of that in what I have stated, you clearly are reading into things most surely not meant at all, and am honestly puzzled that you could closely consider or conclude that at all? Not a single line is suggestive on my behalf that I direct a thought of someone here has a desire to do anything but good.

 

[LoveMyHats2]

As to an actual "demeanor" of those of us that are here on the Lounge, one very common trait I do see among the majority is that we can disagree about topics, opinions, likes, dislikes, but a similar attitude of being a good person and following a way of being good and doing good, shines clearly very brightly.

One fault I personally do have, and perhaps tend to not bend so much on, is my faith in the Lord, faith in the United States, faith in other good people, and have served my Country, and have always been willing to put my own life in harms way to protect my beliefs and to protect others. One of many faults I may have, but they are mine, if you desire to consider them faults. I go about my life willingly and with care and am fairly happy with how I think and act. If at all, anything I am aware of would cause an issue, all I can say is it sure is not meant to be that way, and would offer up a soulful deeply sincere apology for. But I also do not apologize for my core values, beliefs or love.

 

[ThemThereEyes]

No. I do not debate as you are thinking I am. My statement about the Spock issue is simple that it may not have been a "known" religious reason for being a part of a television show.....period. And no, I am not stating anyone is being in desire to go out and do some stupid things to others property or to disrespect a belief or a religion or that anyone here is directing their posts to such a behavior. I do not see any connection at all to any of that in what I have stated, you clearly are reading into things most surely not meant at all, and am honestly puzzled that you could closely consider or conclude that at all? Not a single line is suggestive on my behalf that I direct a thought of someone here has a desire to do anything but good.

Right, which is what Lizzie and I were agreeing about, those things have a religious meaning that is unknown to many that view it as a pop culture thing because it was probably introduced without religious meaning.
As for the rest, I merely thought you were misunderstanding what I was stating. Not trying to argue, and it is nice to have the clarification. I agree with you on many points you made.
Perhaps it is a side effect of insomnia. I haven't had proper sleep in weeks.

 

[sheeplady]

Just so!
I never knew that about Dr. Spock's V! Interesting, and I love learning something new.
I do hate that a pentacle gets confused with Satanism. Of course that was the star of Texas, and people confuse pagans' pentacles as Satanic. Pagans may believe in the existence of evil, but not Satan and don't worship trees.

There's some debate about the orientation of the pentacle. The top point represents the spirt (the lower points the elements). Satanists do sometimes use the reversed pentagram, just as they use the reversed cross (as a symbol of subversion), but just like the cross, it's a subversion of someone else's stuff. Wiccans are the only pagan faith I know of that uses a reversed pentagram and not all wiccans agree with its use this way. The wiccan covens who use it reserve it for people who have sought and acheived the second level of intiation and are typically on their way to becoming a religious leader (third level). Those who reach the third level return the pentagram rightside up. But the turning of the pentagram is controversial among "european tradition" pagans.

 

[ThemThereEyes]

There's some debate about the orientation of the pentacle. The top point represents the spirt (the lower points the elements). Satanists do sometimes use the reversed pentagram, just as they use the reversed cross (as a symbol of subversion), but just like the cross, it's a subversion of someone else's stuff. Wiccians are the only pagan faith I know of that uses a reversed pentagram and not all wiccians agree with its use this way. The wiccian covens who use it reserve it for people who have sought and acheived the second level of intiation and are typically on their way to becoming a religious leader (third level). Those who reach the third level return the pentagram rightside up. But the turning of the pentagram is controversial among "european tradition" pagans.

Yes, I've tried explaining this to others that don't understand. =) I am Wiccan, but I am solitary, and I don't wear my pentacle reversed. I once had a rude "Satanist," quotes because he seemed to "do it" for shock value, tell me my necklace was broken.
Another misconception is that we "hate" Christians, etc. Perfectly untrue. Although, like any group, there are those that perpetuate the negative stereotype. I have friends of many religions.

 

[sheeplady]

Yes, I've tried explaining this to others that don't understand. =) I am Wiccan, but I am solitary, and I don't wear my pentacle reversed. I once had a rude "Satanist," quotes because he seemed to "do it" for shock value, tell me my necklace was broken.
Another misconception is that we "hate" Christians, etc. Perfectly untrue. Although, like any group, there are those that perpetuate the negative stereotype. I have friends of many religions.

Broken, that's wonderful. Urgh. If you're going to subscribe to a religion that's all about subversion (like satanism) you should at least know what you're stealing.

Although, the best comment I've ever gotten was asking me , "why is your star of david missing a point?" (Didn't offend me at all, but it was kind of amusing after the fact when I thought about it.)

 

[ThemThereEyes]

Broken, that's wonderful. Urgh. If you're going to subscribe to a religion that's all about subversion (like satanism) you should at least know what you're stealing.

Although, the best comment I've ever gotten was asking me , "why is your star of david missing a point?" (Didn't offend me at all, but it was kind of amusing after the fact when I thought about it.)

I responded with that, to which he smirked.
Oh my gosh, that is funny! I had a couple of people think it *was* a Star of David. I know that this is Texas, and the majority is Christian, but come on! Didn't these people ever see a Star of David? We have a good sized Jewish community here in town.

 

[LizzieMaine]

"When You've Got a Devil of A Cold..."

 

[ThemThereEyes]

"When You've Got a Devil of A Cold..."

Hahaha! The first time I saw this brand, about 14 years ago, I thought I was imagining it. I worked as a sorter in the McKesson warehouse when I came across their charcoal tablets.

 

[vitanola]

However when I was merely 22 years old, I did read a publication what was written by a family member of Thomas Jefferson, of whom Thomas Jefferson was this individual's father. I would place more stock in that account of what was stated there, then in someone else's accounting.

Jefferson's wrote frequently and affectionately to hos daughter, Martha Jefferson Randolph. His grandson, Thomas Randolph edited the first collection of his letters in 1829. Several further collections were published during the next century, the most complete being the Princeton edition of 1950. A quick perusal of the index to that edition does not indicate the existence of such a letter, though it does appear in literature promoted by "Wall Builders", hardly a reliable source.