Fine Creek Leather

[Mich486]

The discussion on that jacket busted seam on Styleforum is full of drama already.

Just to put things in perspective, that jacket was purchased through Self Edge and the shop owner said that in 2 years they carried the brand they sold around 600 FCL jackets. That was the only jacket where that happened.

 

[torfjord]

Fact remains that the less space there is between stitch holes, the more you weaken the integrity of leather around the seam, increasing the risk that the leather will rip. I did a one year course in leather crafting and my teacher was very clear about this. Although he was mainly talking about saddles and horse gear, which gets subjected to much higher forces than jackets.

 

[Mich486]

^agreed sounds like common sense. Also the amount of leather skivved plays a part.

I find it a bit funny though that higher stitch count is normally seen as a trademark of quality and now all of a sudden it becomes a sign of inferior construction because it’s FCL and somehow it’s not a forum approved brand. A bit like when FCL are bad because the pattern are too elongated (and they are!) but then if Terry wears a FCL jacket the proportions are suddenly “right”. Lol the forum dynamics...

 

[torfjord]

Yeah, but higher stitch count looks much neater. From a strictly aesthetic point of view it is imo superior to the lower stitch count of aero or schott.
The comparison to saddles and stirrups was meant to say that the risks with higher stitch count should be much lower for jackets. Heck, I’ve got a 70 year old goat jacket with a stitch count that’s similar to the FCL pictured above that’s holding together just fine.
I would guess the busted leather running around that seam on the FCL style forum jacket must have had some hidden structural weakness. Either that or the owner did something weird with it. I’m not banging on FCL about it. 1 out of 600 jackets, it doesn’t seem like a huge issue tbh. Although of course it’s a huge bummer for the guy who bought that particular jacket of course.

 

[Marc mndt]

A bit like when FCL are bad because the pattern are too elongated (and they are!) but then if Terry wears a FCL jacket the proportions are suddenly “right”. Lol the forum dynamics...

I'm not a huge fan those elongated jackets. Yet I bought one anyway and a second elongated one will be delivered to me this week. There's no doubt I favour the shorter original over the modern elongated interpretation. But now that I own both, I think that there's a place for both of them. The shorter one looks better over a tucked in shirt. The longer one looks better when worn over a sweater. I'll write a review on these jackets and share my thoughts on the design and the construction as soon as the third one has been delivered.

 

[BloodEagle]

I feel I can contribute to this one as the owner of a FCL Leon Custom, and also by way of comparison a RMC Buco J24L and an OG 50s Buco J22. The FCL stitching is immaculate, closer and a higher stitch count than the RMC J24 yes, but actually very similar to the J22 (I refer back to this rollercoaster thread from months ago -https://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/new-old-buco-j22-pics.100657/).
When the FCL first arrived I was deeply underwhelmed - it was well put together but it seemed so characterless and smooth and, weirdly, really matte - I decided to persevere rather than send it back and within only a few hours it was starting to develop some really nice character and not just hanging but fitting really nicely. Fast forward a few weeks (the FCL was an early xmas present to myself) and the fit of the FCL is stellar - it hangs really well all over, and the leather itself is looking amazing - over time it really does get grainy and starts to get shiny in higher wear areas.
I would put it easily on parr with any RMC leather jacket Ive ever owned, or indeed a Flat Head one I had for a time, and a definite cut above the likes of Aero etc. The feel is very high quality from the smooth glide-on/glide-off lining to the very very supple and comfortable leather out of the box. I can get some pics up if anyone is interested.

 

[Bender]

Respectfully disagree. IMHO, the finish and build quality of FCL jackets are palpably better than Aero, Lewis, and SB. Better stitching and seams. Is it "worth" the premium. Thats a subjective determination that everyone must make for themselves.



FCL does indeed promote a unique fit that diverges from vintage benchmarks. I have tried on several models that did not work for me. I remain hopeful that I will find a model that fits.



IH subcontracts its HH jackets. Previously, IH HH jackets were made by AL/SB. More recently, they are made by an undisclosed manufacturer in Himeji (where much of the best Japanese HH originates, including Shinki).

Dunno if you’ve studied them side by side, but I was wearing my LL Universal Racer Mark II, and had the opportunity... the FCL stuff simply wasn’t any better constructed, imo. Stitching, seams, panels, matching... all very comparable. And I’ve compared my Mark II to my Vicenza Board Racer, and they are very similar in over construction and fit and finish as well. Perhaps I just got very lucky with my LL and Aero, or perhaps the FCL stock I saw was subpar for them, but I dunno...

Regarding the IH stuff... I was aware they farm out, but this is the first time I’d actually handled any of it. No idea about earlier quality- the stuff I saw was new stock, meaning it must be from the unidentified Japanese maker... and it was fantastic.

To those dismissing the Aero, LL and SB stuff when I refer to it as top-tier-ish... I’d love to know who you think occupies that slot. There aren’t a whole lot of companies making handmade bespoke leather jackets to begin with, and those three are very well thought of for a reason. I didn’t say they were the absolute best (note the “ish” tagging my descriptor), but they are certainly some of the best, perhaps a step down from the absolute best. Respectfully, I think dismissing any of those brands outright speaks more to perhaps getting caught up in another manufacturer’s hype than an honest assessment of the jackets.

 

[red devil]

Dunno if you’ve studied them side by side, but I was wearing my LL Universal Racer Mark II, and had the opportunity... the FCL stuff simply wasn’t any better constructed, imo. Stitching, seams, panels, matching... all very comparable. And I’ve compared my Mark II to my Vicenza Board Racer, and they are very similar in over construction and fit and finish as well. Perhaps I just got very lucky with my LL and Aero, or perhaps the FCL stock I saw was subpar for them, but I dunno...

Regarding the IH stuff... I was aware they farm out, but this is the first time I’d actually handled any of it. No idea about earlier quality- the stuff I saw was new stock, meaning it must be from the unidentified Japanese maker... and it was fantastic.

To those dismissing the Aero, LL and SB stuff when I refer to it as top-tierish... I’d love to know who you think occupies that slot. There aren’t a whole lot of companies making handmade bespoke leather jackets to begin with, and those three are very well thought of for a reason. I didn’t say they were the absolute best (note the “ish” tagging my descriptor), but they are certainly some of the best, perhaps a step down from the absolute best. Respectfully, I think dismissing any of those brands outright speaks more to perhaps getting caught up in another manufacturer’s hype than an honest assessment of the jackets.

I think the reason LL is underrated is because of the leather and hardware they use. In terms of construction and pattern though, I would put them over Aero.

I personally own an LL but no Aero, you could see me as being biased for this. But the reality is that handling LL jackets made me want to order a lightning at the time, while handling Aeros made me hesitate and I ended up never ordering one.

You could go with the concept that any jacket we discuss are top tier, and in a way they are, but I think we have become more granular. With experience you start noticing more things, it is just the way it is.

I would agree with you that hype and elitism muddies the water as they have done in countless areas, and of course the higher priced item is not always the better one - if only it were that way, would make it easier for consumers lol

But we do have different tiers within the high tiers we discussed, and personally I certainly don't see Aero in there. Specifically for their stubborn refusal to use bigger size zippers resulting in failures, their patterns that hang on the neck as opposed to the shoulders.

Speaking of the patterns, as much as I like Japanese brands, I do not think they have great patterns either, the OTR brands that is. When I get my bespoke jackets from lesser known makers - need to be in Tokyo for that - then I will relay my experiences here.

 

[BloodEagle]

For reference my 4 week old FCL Leon Custom 1.3mm

And closeup of stitching

 

[Marc mndt]

For reference my 4 week old FCL Leon Custom 1.3mm View attachment 299992
And closeup of stitching
View attachment 299993

This is a great looking jacket. I think we need more FCL reviews here on TFL

 

[Ayeteael]

This is not directed at any one member, and I admit and acknowledge my FCL fandom, but I always find the debate about brand hierarchy determined by stitch count, grain matching, leather luster, dullness, weight, leather provenance, etc. totally academic. It can be fun to debate online, but when it comes to spending my greenbacks, I could care less about stitch count and laser-straight rows of stitching. All I care about is whether it passes the eye and fit test: does it look good on my body and does it feel good when I wear it? We all have different body types, so I don't find the discourse of Brand X is better than Brand Y because the stitching is precise that helpful. I wholeheartedly agree that its helpful to know whether a jacket falls into a specific quality tier (e.g. mall jackets, entry-levels, mid-tier, Japanese grails), but I believe once you get to the top tier of makers, our preferences are based on our own subjective bias and value considerations. Plus even the best makers can produce duds every now and then (maybe the person making that FCL Robert was having a tough time that day at the shop and stitched a seam to close to the edge causing a failure).

Like the Supreme Court's view on the definition of porn, you know a quality leather jacket when you see it. I think FCL is producing very interesting leather jackets, but I'm the first to admit I don't consider them the "best." But I do consider them worthy of being mentioned with the best makers based on my limited experience of owning an FCL (briefly), as well as Aeros, Schotts, Vanson, and Valstars, and handling countless leather jackets at fine retail establishments like Self Edge.

 

[Monitor]

This is not directed at any one member, and I admit and acknowledge my FCL fandom, but I always find the debate about brand hierarchy determined by stitch count, grain matching, leather luster, dullness, weight, leather provenance, etc. totally academic. It can be fun to debate online, but when it comes to spending my greenbacks, I could care less about stitch count and laser-straight rows of stitching. All I care about is whether it passes the eye and fit test: does it look good on my body and does it feel good when I wear it? We all have different body types, so I don't find the discourse of Brand X is better than Brand Y because the stitching is precise that helpful. I wholeheartedly agree that its helpful to know whether a jacket falls into a specific quality tier (e.g. mall jackets, entry-levels, mid-tier, Japanese grails), but I believe once you get to the top tier of makers, our preferences are based on our own subjective bias and value considerations. Plus even the best makers can produce duds every now and then (maybe the person making that FCL Robert was having a tough time that day at the shop and stitched a seam to close to the edge causing a failure).

Like the Supreme Court's view on the definition of porn, you know a quality leather jacket when you see it. I think FCL is producing very interesting leather jackets, but I'm the first to admit I don't consider them the "best." But I do consider them worthy of being mentioned with the best makers based on my limited experience of owning an FCL (briefly), as well as Aeros, Schotts, Vanson, and Valstars, and handling countless leather jackets at fine retail establishments like Self Edge.

Well said.

 

[Ayeteael]

This is a side bar, but I also find it ironic that criteria traditionally used to judge classic menswear (stitching neatness, etc.) is used to judge leather jackets that look absolutely better when they're aged, worn, and beat to hell (a FCL hallmark). Errant stitching never bothers me, because I want my jackets broken in. Errant stitching is only an issue if it creates a failure point. Otherwise, its a non-factor for me.

 

[jeo]

I find it a bit funny though that higher stitch count is normally seen as a trademark of quality and now all of a sudden it becomes a sign of inferior construction because it’s FCL and somehow it’s not a forum approved brand. A bit like when FCL are bad because the pattern are too elongated (and they are!) but then if Terry wears a FCL jacket the proportions are suddenly “right”. Lol the forum dynamics...

Who ever said it wasn't a forum approved brand? What does that mean exactly?

When people first started posting about FCL there were some members that expressed their distaste for the miss matched grain on the front panels.

When more members started getting their jackets, people realized their cuts may not be for everyone.

But I don't think there was ever a consensus about if they are "forum approved" or not.

I also don't think that after Terry posted his awesome new FCL that people all of a sudden thought their proportions are "right". I think people are still acknowledging that their patterns fit slim and longer than most other patterns. Works on some, not on others.

That's why I must take an opposing view with what @red devil said about Japanese patterns. I've seen multiple Japanese brand jackets work on MANY people. They may just not work for him. But that would be like me saying that north American brands' patterns are not great because they don't work on me, which would be a ridiculous statement.

Back to forum approved. Maybe Alexander/Simmons Bilt and Bill Kelso are not forum approved (by most?)? But for reasons such as their business practices and not their jacket designs or construction. I'm sure many people here love both those brands and they seem to produce awesome jackets.

I think only the "mall brand" jackets may not be approved by most here, although my favorite jacket that I own is my LVC. Maybe not quite a mall brand, but still not often discussed around here.

Don't mean to be contentious here, just my opinions.

 

[Mich486]

It’s undeniable that there are brands that are very... polarising on the TFL. How many times one needs to read about how bad FCL is because they cut-off the epaulettes of one out 50 models, the dislike for mismatched panels and what not? Jeez the busted seam posted twice already in 2 pages.

All I have been trying to get across is that I don’t see FCL jackets much differently from RMC, RC or the Flat Head etc. Very nice leather, pretty damn good stitching and details... But apparently for some there seems to be a huge quality differential which I have yet to see explained.

We all have our opinions and different tastes but I think FCL attracts a lot of undeserved negative attention.

That’s all from me. Hope to see more jackets pictures!

 

[Superfluous]

@BloodEagle -- thanks for the photo -- that is beautiful stitching on your FCL jacket. I also love the French seams. This is why I want a FCL jacket.

Stitch density has been debated on TFL many times in the past. Stitch density can be desirable both for structural integrity and aesthetics (for those of us who prefer stitch density, me included). On the other hand, "excessive" stitch density can, at some point, compromise the integrity of the leather. The key question is what constitutes "excessive" stitch density. When are the stitch holes too close? When is the thread too tight? When is the leather at risk of tearing? There are lots of lay opinions being shared here based on eyeballing an internet photograph, but who here is sufficiently knowledgeable to advance an informed opinion regarding what constitutes "excessive" stitch density, when that line is crossed, and whether FCL has crossed that line? I admittedly am not sufficiently knowledgeable to opine on the subject.

Himel posted about stitch counts a few years ago: https://www.thefedoralounge.com/thr...bros-avail-at-orvis.87375/page-9#post-2153480 It is far, far more complicated then merely the distance between the holes. The type of needle used and the resulting size of the stitch hole is a key factor. The type of thread is also a key factor. And there are other considerations, including the leather itself.

If FCL jackets were regularly failing because stitch holes were tearing, I would be concerned. However, to the best of my knowledge, that is not happening. To the best of my knowledge, there has only been one FCL seam failure (that has been shared multiple times on TFL by those who dislike FCL) and, even then, I don't know if that was caused by compromised leather that tore at the stitch holes. I also am aware of Aero seam failures. It happens. If FCL's stitch holes were in fact too close and thereby impairing the integrity of the leather, I would expect multiple failures -- certainly more than one. That hasn't happened. If it does, I will re-evaluate my opinion. Otherwise, unless someone can proffer concrete data and/or a genuinely knowledgeable/expert explanation that FCL's otherwise beautiful stitching is in fact too tight and does in fact compromise the integrity of the leather in light of the various relevant considerations, I am unpersuaded by lay opinions that the stitch holes "look too close." They don't "look too close" to me -- then again, I am not an expert on the subject.

I am putting my money where my mouth is. FCL jacket ordered today. I am MUCH less concerned with the structural integrity of the beautiful stitching, and MUCH more concerned with the fit. Fingers crossed.

Lastly, @dudewuttheheck - if I came on too strong, I apologize.

 

[red devil]

That's why I must take an opposing view with what @red devil said about Japanese patterns. I've seen multiple Japanese brand jackets work on MANY people. They may just not work for him. But that would be like me saying that north American brands' patterns are not great because they don't work on me, which would be a ridiculous statement.

If they did not work only for me, I would not be having this view about their patterns - I am, only one person

From what I have seen, The Flat head only works with a specific body type, RMC is a bit more forgiving but still a gamble if you can't try it.

Freewheelers on the other hand is hit and miss, their patterns vary massively with models. So some models work some don't, you really have to try them on.

Tenjin has better patterns overall than these guys, they are made to measure though (not bespoke).

I currently own one tenjin, one freewheelers, one IH made by fourspeed.

 

[Superfluous]

If they did not work only for me, I would not be having this view about their patterns - I am, only one person

From what I have seen, The Flat head only works with a specific body type, RMC is a bit more forgiving but still a gamble if you can't try it.

Freewheelers on the other hand is hit and miss, their patterns vary massively with models. So some models work some don't, you really have to try them on.

I agree. I have tried on several FCL jackets and the patterns did not work. I just ordered another (without trying it on). It may be in the Classified section next week if it doesn't fit.

The Flat Head jackets never fit me. The shoulders were far too broad in relationship to the chest. I have the same problem with their shirts.

I have had very good luck with RMC jackets, both leather and non-leather.

I have yet to find a Freewheelers leather jacket that fits me. Some are too short in the body or the sleeves. Others are too narrow in the chest, or too broad in the shoulder at the correct chest measurement. Freewheelers non-leather jackets are a different story. I have three that fit well.

 

[Superfluous]

It’s undeniable that there are brands that are very... polarising on the TFL. How many times one needs to read about how bad FCL is because they cut-off the epaulettes of one out 50 models, the dislike for mismatched panels and what not? Jeez the busted seam posted twice already in 2 pages.

All I have been trying to get across is that I don’t see FCL jackets much differently from RMC, RC or the Flat Head etc. Very nice leather, pretty damn good stitching and details... But apparently for some there seems to be a huge quality differential which I have yet to see explained.

We all have our opinions and different tastes but I think FCL attracts a lot of undeserved negative attention.

^ This!

 

[jeo]

If they did not work only for me, I would not be having this view about their patterns - I am, only one person

From what I have seen, The Flat head only works with a specific body type, RMC is a bit more forgiving but still a gamble if you can't try it.

Freewheelers on the other hand is hit and miss, their patterns vary massively with models. So some models work some don't, you really have to try them on.

Tenjin has better patterns overall than these guys, they are made to measure though (not bespoke).

I currently own one tenjin, one freewheelers, one IH made by fourspeed.

Oh of course, no doubt about it. I'm sure you stated your opinion based on not only what you've seen for yourself and the jackets you own but also what you've seen from other people. But I'm sure just as you've seen Japanese patterns not work on a lot of people, that you've also seen them work on many other people.

You only stated your opinion and I respect that. That's why I said I'm taking an opposing view point and not necessarily disagreeing with you haha!

Since different models have different cuts even for the same brand, it is my humble opinion that this subject needs to be approached person by person, brand by brand, model by model, jacket by jacket.

That's all I was trying to get across.

Out of all the Japanese stuff that I've owned, tried and seen, RMC have the best patterns. What I mean when I say best, is that they seem to work and look good on the most amount of different body types. I'm not talking about comfort, movement etc..