Eastman A-2 help

[GregGale]

Dear All,

I'm Greg, an aviation enthusiast and hobby pilot from Hungary, Europe. I've come here to seek advice about Eastman A-2 jackets. I've searched the forums but there are some things that are still a bit unclear. I'm sure you folks are the ultimate experts of A-2s, and you might be able to point me in the right direction.

Foreword:
I've been dreaming about an Eastman A-2 forever. I could never afford one, so I bought an old Avirex off ebay. It's all torn up, so I use it to wear at the airfield. Size 40, perfect fit, nice color.

Then I bought a Cockpit re-issue goatskin, size 40. It was too baggy, and I didn't like the fit/ texture. So I sold it and when in the US I picked up a Cockpit WWII horsehide. The size was 36 Long, it fit me rather tightly, but the length was OK-ish. It was too dark, however, and didn't look as authentic and natural as those Eastmans on the movie screen.

Questions:
Now I might be able to save enough to buy the real deal, an Eastman! I have 4 models in mind, but you might suggest a 5th that fits my needs better.

- 23373 Seal brown
- 23373 Havana brown
- 27752 Rough Wear
- 1401p Rough Wear

Question one is the color: is the seal brown color of the 23373 and the 27752 the same? Equally, does the 23373 Havana match the 1401? If yes, I would go for a version of the 373, as they are cheaper.

I definitely don't want anything black-ish, dark, like the Escape jacket, or the one they were wearing in the movie "Memphis Belle", on the other hand, I've seen some very light brown versions to that I really disliked. I would like something on the darker side, but with a definite russet shade. I've googled pictures of these and the shade varies from picture to picture. The seal brown is too dark on some pictures, and just right on others. The Havana brown looks perfect in the movie "Red Tails", but I've seen pictures of some very, very light ones.

Question two: the fit. I'm 184 cm tall, and weight 74kg. I wear size M H&M T-shirts, a size L Alpha MA-1, Size 40 Avirex, I tried a size 40 Cockpit G-1 that fit me like a dream, and a size 38 WPG Irvin. I'm quite sure I couldn't find the right fit by the numbers. Is there a place in the UK where I could go and try on different sizes and see the shades for myself?

I would appreciate any advice you may have for me, as well as pictures of the above Eastman jackets, should you own one.

Thanks a lot,
Greg

PS: here is a picture of the cockpit WWII A-2 that is too dark and a bit on the tight side:

And here is my old, torn up Avirex A-2, hand painted by my girlfriend. I much prefer its reddish shade compare to the dark chocolate of the Cockpit HH.

This is the color I'm after. More russet than seal brown, but darker than havana brown. Which one is it?

 

[Big J]

Welcome to the Lounge!
I can't give you advice about Eastman A-2s, but I have several Aeros, and they are excellent. You should consider them too, and ask for samples of the leather so that you can choose the right color for your jacket.

By the way, I love the fit of that Cockpit re-issue! Looks damn near perfect to me!

 

[breezer]

If thats a still from Red Tails I would guess its a Goodwear jacket....they supplied the jackets for the principal cast members.

 

[l0fielectronic]

Is there a place in the UK where I could go and try on different sizes and see the shades for myself?

I know both Son of Stag ( https://www.sonofastag.com/collections/eastman-leather-clothing ) and American Classics carry Eastman in London so you may be able to try some jackets at those two places. They do list another stockist there on their website too.

 

[GregGale]

Thanks for your replies.

I checked Aero as well but their jackets look much stiffer than Eastmans. I prefer the look of the latter.

It's a still from Red Tails, and the jackets were supplied by Eastman:
http://www.redtailsjackets.com/

According to this page this caracter wears a Cable Raincoat Co. A2, but it looks much darker than on the website, so that got me confused.

 

[breezer]

It's a still from Red Tails, and the jackets were supplied by Eastman:

From the Good Wear website:

"We were invited to make Type A-2 jackets for the main characters, all being custom fitted for each actor it was meant for. This is an exciting opportunity for us. The door was opened through David Howell of Diamond Cap Co., who suggested to the costume designer that we be included.

The costume designer, Alison Mitchell, went to great lengths to ensure that every detail of clothing worn by the actors would be convincing to any WWII enthusiast. Many complicated parts of flight gear had to be found or created from scratch, and this was done whole-heartedly. "

 

[GregGale]

Interesting, thanks! I definitely cannot afford a GW. Which Eastman has a similar shade? I mean a dark russet color. Their "seal brown" varies from black to dark russet from picture to picture.

 

[breezer]

I would recommend Aero - plenty of choices of colour & hides.

 

[Brettafett]

Hi Greg, welcome!

I can certainly offer some opinions for what its worth. I’ve owned many top end repro A-2s, incl. many Eastmans - just love them.

ELC (Eastman) offers their premium vintage Horsehide in Seal and Russet, the hues and tones vary from batch to batch, so its best to ask for samples of what is currently available and compare them.

I have found there is less of a variation with the Seal hides than the russet, which seems to vary a bit more… sometimes from a lighter Tan colour, to a reddy brown, to a mid brown and anything in-between… The seal is certainly never dark, at least I have never seen a very dark batch.
(The HLB 75th FG and Escape RW27752 Elite Units jackets are both unique, in that they are made using the Russet Havana, but have then been re-dyed with a darker shade of brown, so they may or may not appear darker than the premium Seal HH jackets, depending on many factors).

I had a Russet sample from a few months ago, which was gorgeous chocolatey colour, more mid brown than red russet, but my latest sample is a lot more reddy… that being said, it has an amazing ‘vintage’ appearance and I am sure will ‘age’ very well in no time.
So, the ELC house AND Original Makers jackets use the SAME premium horsehide.

The ‘house’ jackets, are a slightly more generic pattern without the collar stand, but still top jackets.
The Slender is essentially a trimmed down ‘house’ jacket for very trim blokes.
I am an athletic and pretty trim guy, but found it a touch tight in my size and even one size bigger…

Most of the ‘Red Tails’ A-2 pics surfing the web are of Goodwear A-2 jackets… That pic of David Oyelowo is a GW Bronco in russet. (I may be wrong, but I think most of the B-10s were Eastman)…

Fit wise, I am 181 and approx 72 kgs and wear a size 40 Long in an Eastman. Again, this may vary from particular contract to contract. For example, I tried on a Star the other day and a 42 felt much better.
The std ‘house’ jacket are a touch roomier than most of the Original Maker patterns… Not baggy, but just not as trim in fit.
I also had two Cockpit G-1s (100 mission and Forrestal) and wore a size 40. Good fit, but would have preferred slightly longer in body.

For you, I would have your Cockpit A-2 measured and then look on History Preservation Associates’ website...(https://www.historypreservation.com/products-page/eastman-leather-brands/) and then under each particular jacket, you can find approx measurements, so you can compare with your Cockpit. Its the best way.
Once you decide on a specific jacket, email Rob at Eastman UK and ask him to measure an actual jacket for you, to double check and then request leather samples of the leather they expect to use on the jacket.

I can highly recommend the RW1401! It is a fantastic jacket all round. Size 40 long was a perfect fit. HLB, Cable and Werber would be a 40 long like the 1401.
I find the RW 27752 size 40 fits ok, but for me is a touch broad in the shoulders and body, 38 is too restrictive. Just the pattern.
The Monarch and Star are fantastic, but again pretty trim. I would possibly go for a 42 in those to be comfortable.
For the house jacket, I may actually go down to a 38 long or extra long.

I have done a number of jacket reviews on this forum and uploaded many pics, please try and do a search for my recent RW1401, ELC Monarch, the ELC Pop Up in London last year, etc. If you don’t come right, I can upload some of them again…

Hope that helps some.

 

[Brettafett]

ps dont trust the colours and shades of pictures. The lighting affects the photos greatly depending where/how its shot.
Certainly check out Aero, Ive had a few... And AVI LTHR Denmark is soon going to have a Bronco A-2 made from a WW2 original they sourced. Lots of options...

 

[GregGale]

Hi Brettafett,

Thank you for your reply, it was more than I hoped for, very informative!
I will stay away from the house jacket, then, because I prefer trimmer fits. I looked up your 1401P, and I must say I'm looking for something darker. I reckon seal brown it is for me ,then. Especially if you say they are never too dark.

So what original makers seal brown options do I have? The RW 27752 or the Star Sportswear 27752. You said the RW was a bit roomy, and the Star is quite trim?

I also tried a size 40 Cocpit 100 mission G-1 once, and it fit like a dream.
I'm approx 6 cm taller than you, and weigh 2 kg more, so if you need a lengthened version, then so do I. I guess I will need a 40 Long or a 42 Long, then.

I tried to get in touch with them, but an autoreply said they are on holiday until Sept.1.

Thanks again!
Greg

 

[Brettafett]

Yes, holidays...
As far as a Seal jacket... I would say for you, a 40 Long or XL in the RW27752... Its just a boxy pattern, not baggy.
A 42 long in the Star.
Don't discount the 'house' Seal model. You could look at a 40 long or XL again...
Have a look at the Slender model, its actually a nice jacket. For you, possibly a 42 long or even a 44, as its a pretty trim jacket.
Or you would have to wait and hope for a darker batch of russet, but may wait a while
Son of Stagg in London had a special .50 cal in the Seal Horsehide. Email them and ask about it. It may have been a one off.
Again, this is just my opinion, I would definitely speak to Rob.

 

[Brettafett]

Had a couple of pics at hand...
Three variations of Eastman's havana russet horsehide, taken at the recent Duxford Airshow a month ago. The lighter jacket is from an older batch. The one on the far right is more recent, but the middle jacket is what their current batch of russet looks like.

From the London Pop-Up at the end of last year.
M422a size 40 and Star size 40. Seal is not dark at all. Fantastic chocolate colour.

 

[nick123]

I have the seal "Warhorse" hide, which I believe (the Warhorse) is used on most/all of the original maker Eastman jackets. It can look very dark in photos, but is more of a dark chocolate milk/earthy brown in medium light and then lightens up to a warm darker medium brown in the sun. Is not a very dark/deep seal.

 

[GregGale]

Fantastic pictures, that seal brown is exactly what I'm after. Thank you!
Now to decide between a RW 27752 and a Star Sportswear. Can't wait to get to London!

 

[Cocker]

I checked Aero as well but their jackets look much stiffer than Eastmans.

Greg, what do you mean by stiffer ? The Eastman jackets are not less stiff than Aero ones. A new Eastman will be a shiny, stiff jacket that you'll have to break in. As every horsehide jacket will be.

 

[seres]

Had a couple of pics at hand...
Three variations of Eastman's havana russet horsehide, taken at the recent Duxford Airshow a month ago. The lighter jacket is from an older batch. The one on the far right is more recent, but the middle jacket is what their current batch of russet looks like....

Thanks for the picture! The havana looks much better in your pic than the catalog pic.

 

[Sloan1874]

Also, watch for the stitching on the ELC Star. I saw one in Son of Stagg and there was a section on the collar that looked as if whoever was sewing it was seriously distracted for a few seconds...

 

[GregGale]

I've been researching the Star and the RW 27752, and this is what I found:
The Star is trimmer at the waist, but roomier at the shoulder. It has also snugger fitting arms than, and a collar with lower front end. The 27752's collar stands closer to the chin, and the torso is roomier. Can anyone confirm?

If all this is true, the star sounds like what I need, I'm quite slim, and I like trimmer fitting A-2s. Too bad about the collar, I really like it when the front stands high.

 

[Brettafett]

Greg,

Actually, for a given size, the Star is a bit trimmer in the shoulders also. Size 40 generally measures 17.5 inches, whereas the 27752 is usually around 18.5. I played with Rob’s measuring tape recently at Duxford… Definitely the Star is trimmer in the torso.
My guess is a 42 Long for you, but again… check with ELC.
I’m 5’11 72kgs trim/ athletic and the Star 40 is a bit too snug to be comfy. Personally, I would go for a 42, maybe even a 42 long also - as with wear, the sleeves tend to crease up a touch at the pits and the elbows, so in my book, a little extra length never hurts.
You won’t notice the lower collar much, if anything you may find it a touch more comfortable when sitting or driving.

I wouldn’t say Aero’s hides are stiffer than ELC’s, all new jackets will need some breaking in. But if you are talking Aero’s heavier stuff, then maybe, but those aren’t used on A-2s… Then again Aero has many different hides to choose from and they all vary in many ways.
The Warhorse hide is my favourite though, it oozes character and richness. The ELCs I have had, have not been that stiff either, in fact, most like my last RW were pretty comfy straight in.

I actually wonder if Stagg received some ‘odd’ jackets back then, because when I was there a while ago, they had a few jackets not normally available, like that HH .50 Cal and a 44XL Monarch…

Not to play Devil’s advocate, but the only repro I have had that had something fall apart, was an Aero Bronco. After a day or so, one of the pockets came loose and literally almost fell off. To their credit, they took it back and fixed it prompt-like.

You can’t go wrong with an Aero or an ELC (or a Cockpit for that matter). In fact I’d be interested in your Cockpit’s measurements when you have a chance.