Panama Hat Thread

[belfastboy]

@belfastboy Robert, can you make a telescope Panama? That is, can you steam in a telescope crease like with felt or does the crease have to be formed during the weaving process?

Yes, I can make a telescope crown. I show a few on my Instagram page, @gaultrobert wolfbrae. I do have to use a preformed block with the telescope crown and the tipper to get it really set into the straw. I have two brim sizes....one will get a fedora style and then I have wide brim sun hats. I am about to try an experiment and cut down a wide brimmed straw and bind the edge with ribbon. A bit blasphemous but the client wants a specific brim width so I agreed to give it a shot.

 

[belfastboy]

I have zero first hand knowledge about this, and I would love to hear Robert’s thoughts on this hat - particularly on the quality of the hat body and the potential to reshape it without causing greater damage, and/or repairing (visually) the existing damage.

Having said that, I have done quite a bit of research on this subject. Montecristi hat bodies are woven into a basic “hat” shape, not a wearable configuration. There are many steps to this process, but the hat finisher buys these hat bodies, and then steams and blocks them into the desired shape, and applies all the finish details, ribbon, sweatband, and so on.

It is possible, under ideal circumstances, to take a montecristi hat that has been made into a fedora, for example, and make it into a different style hat. It is also possible to take a fedora and rotate it so that a damaged spot in the pinch is now in the back of the hat.

When the hats are woven, the are woven onto generic size blocks. This means taking a straw hat that has been woven to a 57 hat body and reblocking it up to a 59, for example, puts it under a different kind of stress.

I don’t know how much flexibility a good hatter has in this area, even under ideal circumstances, and this hat isn’t ideal.

I strongly suspect that Robert would not want to touch this hat with a 10 foot pole, for fear of a catastrophic failure in the attempt, but again, I would very much like to hear his thoughts. For educational purposes, if for no other reason.

Straw is very different to work with than felt. Firstly there is little to no stretch to the straw. So straw is not a candidate for upsizing even when it is perfect condition. I repair Panama straws and while it never restores it perfectly to new condition it can give a damaged straw extended life. It depends on the degree of damage. But some painstaking steps to reglue the individual strands of straw back in place and then booting the backside with a glue or glueing in some grosgrain ribbon in a matching colour will stop the spread of the damage.

 

[Judgmentalist]

Straw is very different to work with than felt. Firstly there is little to no stretch to the straw. So straw is not a candidate for upsizing even when it is perfect condition. I repair Panama straws and while it never restores it perfectly to new condition it can give a damaged straw extended life. It depends on the degree of damage. But some painstaking steps to reglue the individual strands of straw back in place and then booting the backside with a glue or glueing in some grosgrain ribbon in a matching colour will stop the spread of the damage.

Thanks Robert. I was getting that vibe. Some of this stuff is very hard to nail down from just research - without hands on experience and training.

Aside from the damage, what do you think of this hat body - in terms of weave quality, color, WPI and anything else that matters? Please and thank you.

@belfastboy

 

[belfastboy]

Thanks Robert. I was getting that vibe. Some of this stuff is very hard to nail down from just research - without hands on experience and training.

Aside from the damage, what do you think of this hat body - in terms of weave quality, color, WPI and anything else that matters? Please and thank you.

@belfastboy

Yes, it does look like a nicely woven straw. I could not see the broken straw.

 

[The Shoe]

@belfastboy Robert, can you make a telescope Panama? That is, can you steam in a telescope crease like with felt or does the crease have to be formed during the weaving process?

Here’s my Wolfbrae Panama with a telescope crown. I like it!

 

[Judgmentalist]

Here’s my Wolfbrae Panama with a telescope crown. I like it!
View attachment 787167

I like it too

 

[Judgmentalist]

Here’s my Wolfbrae Panama with a telescope crown. I like it!
View attachment 787167

That’s one of your kimono ribbons, correct? Love the ribbon

 

[The Shoe]

That’s one of your kimono ribbons, correct? Love the ribbon

That’s right. The other one (and my wife’s one) should get an airing in the very near future.

 

[Rmccamey]

That's it, Gary. Thanks for posting. I have a Wolfbrea plantation hat that I really enjoy in the summer, and I wear it often, but it is rather plain. Yours with the telescope crown and curled brim has more character.

Robert, can you put me on your list for a duplicate of Gary's hat? I'll send you the specs next week.

Yes, I can make a telescope crown. I show a few on my Instagram page, @gaultrobert wolfbrae. I do have to use a preformed block with the telescope crown and the tipper to get it really set into the straw. I have two brim sizes....one will get a fedora style and then I have wide brim sun hats. I am about to try an experiment and cut down a wide brimmed straw and bind the edge with ribbon. A bit blasphemous but the client wants a specific brim width so I agreed to give it a shot.

Here’s my Wolfbrae Panama with a telescope crown. I like it!
View attachment 787167

 

[Judgmentalist]

This is a little project I started to teach myself about these hats. If anybody finds this interesting and or useful, cool. If not, my apologies.

As you know, if the picture is taken according to Bill's methodology, the horizontal count is unidirectional, and the vertical count is bi-directional. I was able to replicate his verified count across the entire range of WPI. I was also able to confirm that it is okay to get off of your weave line as long as you track consistently. One strand left or right for the sake of visibility does not affect the count.

Each photo below is annotated with the weave count in both directions, the WPI, and the corresponding grade/WPI range/pricing tier currently on BBB's site.

I ordered a few items from Amazon to help me replicate these photos, and next I will try to create my own photos of all llano weave hats in my possession/soon to be in my possession, and I will post those in reply to this thread as I get them. Should be interesting; at least to me.

18x17 - 306 WPI - below grade 18-19 -324-361 - $600)
This hat body is actually below BBB's entry level Grade 18-19. It is the lowest WPI pictured I believe.

20x24 - 480 WPI - between grade 23 and 24 - $800-$1000)
If I had realized this photo would land in a gap between two grades I would have chosen a different one. I chose 480ish for a reason, but I can't remember why at the moment.

28-29 - 812 WPI - grade 28-29 -784-841 - $2350)

30x35 - 1050 WPI - Mil Fino -1000-1299 - $5000)

33x33 - 1089 WPI - Mil Fino -1000-1299 - $5000)
This one is an unusually square Mil Fino for visual comparison purposes

40x41 - 1804 WPI - Master Weaver Mil Fino -1801-2049 - $12,500)
This one I picked as a nod to @Bill Hughes , since he has the nicest Montecristi I've ever seen

56x54 - 3024 WPI - Simón Espinal - 2500-3599 - $25,000)
This is one of the highest WPI counts pictured on his website, but he has one additional price point of 3600+ WPI at $40,000 that is commission only.

 

[Judgmentalist]

James Oviatt was born in 1888 and died in 1974. He commissioned the construction of what would later become known as the Oviatt Building, which housed the Oviatt Haberdashery from its opening until it closed in 1969. Oviatt and his wife lived in the penthouse suite there until their deaths in 1974 and 1975.

This hat must have been produced and originally sold sometime before the haberdashery closed in 1969. I bought it partly because I found the provenance fascinating, but also because it is probably the most finely woven Montecristi hat I will ever personally handle. The damaged areas in the weave made it affordable enough for me to justify as both an educational piece and an object d’art. I also wanted the opportunity to experience a hat of this WPI firsthand so I could better understand how much I personally value extremely high weave counts.

I bought a few tools on Amazon to help with measuring it, and I’m going to try to get an accurate WPI count tomorrow. Once I do, I’ll post the results in reply to this thread.

This hat may ultimately save me far more money than it cost. People often describe higher-WPI hats as feeling like linen. This hat is definitely a different animal from my PHD, but to me it feels more like paper than linen. Perhaps the weave count simply isn’t high enough to enter that “linen-like” category. Maybe I’ll find out tomorrow. Either way, I don’t think I personally need to spend the kind of money required to acquire a hat of this WPI—unless I happen across an exceptional deal on the secondary market for one that actually fits me.

This is now the third Montecristi I’ve owned that I can’t wear. I gave one to a good friend, one to my wife, and now I have this one as more of an educational artifact.

I’m going to send it to Brent Black and see if he’d be willing to take a look at it. At the very least, I’d like to hear his opinion. If he’s willing to risk attempting a reblock, I may see whether he can turn it into something my wife would actually wear. I don’t think she’ll be much of a fan of the Optimo style, but we’ll see.

 

[Judgmentalist]

This is a little project I started to teach myself about these hats. If anybody finds this interesting and or useful, cool. If not, my apologies.

As you know, if the picture is taken according to Bill's methodology, the horizontal count is unidirectional, and the vertical count is bi-directional. I was able to replicate his verified count across the entire range of WPI. I was also able to confirm that it is okay to get off of your weave line as long as you track consistently. One strand left or right for the sake of visibility does not affect the count.

Each photo below is annotated with the weave count in both directions, the WPI, and the corresponding grade/WPI range/pricing tier currently on BBB's site.

I ordered a few items from Amazon to help me replicate these photos, and next I will try to create my own photos of all llano weave hats in my possession/soon to be in my possession, and I will post those in reply to this thread as I get them. Should be interesting; at least to me.

18x17 - 306 WPI - below grade 18-19 -324-361 - $600)
This hat body is actually below BBB's entry level Grade 18-19. It is the lowest WPI pictured I believe.
View attachment 788219

20x24 - 480 WPI - between grade 23 and 24 - $800-$1000)
If I had realized this photo would land in a gap between two grades I would have chosen a different one. I chose 480ish for a reason, but I can't remember why at the moment.
View attachment 788220

28-29 - 812 WPI - grade 28-29 -784-841 - $2350)
View attachment 788221

30x35 - 1050 WPI - Mil Fino -1000-1299 - $5000)
View attachment 788222

33x33 - 1089 WPI - Mil Fino -1000-1299 - $5000)
This one is an unusually square Mil Fino for visual comparison purposes
View attachment 788223

40x41 - 1804 WPI - Master Weaver Mil Fino -1801-2049 - $12,500)
This one I picked as a nod to @Bill Hughes , since he has the nicest Montecristi I've ever seen
View attachment 788224

56x54 - 3024 WPI - Simón Espinal - 2500-3599 - $25,000)
This is one of the highest WPI counts pictured on his website, but he has one additional price point of 3600+ WPI at $40,000 that is commission only.
View attachment 788225

Here we go. Brent Black's pictures are better than mine. If I was going to get serious about this I would get better macro photography equipment and some specialized stuff to hold hats in place, etc. to streamline and optimize this process. Still, for any hat I'm ever likely to touch this gets the job done.

My (currently naked) PHD. I count 440 WPI. This is a nice hat body. A little less WPI than my wife's BBB, maybe not quite as evenly woven, but very nice, in my humble opinion. The straw in this hat is also flatter, it seems, whereas the straw in my wife's BBB hat is more rounded. Not sure what that means, if anything, but I find it interesting.

My wife's BBB. Very evenly woven hat. I can't say anything bad about it. I count 483 WPI.

The Oviatt Optimo. I count 1700 WPI. Considering this thing is probably around 60 years old, it’s in remarkably good condition. This is obviously the most finely woven hat I’ve ever handled, and probably ever will unless I get lucky on a future snipe hunt.

My count came out to 42.5 × 40, which is bang on 1700. You could reasonably argue for 43 × 41 (1763), and I wouldn’t fight anyone who called it 42 × 39 (1638). If I counted this hat three times, I’d probably end up with five different answers anyway.

But regardless of the exact number, it’s a genuinely impressive hat.

I hate that it has a few damaged spots in the straw. Then again, if it didn’t, I probably never would’ve had the opportunity to handle something like this in the first place.

I've got more Panama hats coming in the future, and I will continue to practice this WPI count process and include the results in a reply to this thread as they come in. If anyone sees anywhere that I could benefit from some education, please jump in. This is fun. My wife has called me a nerd at least six different times tonight lol.

 

[Judgmentalist]

Here we go. Brent Black's pictures are better than mine. If I was going to get serious about this I would get better macro photography equipment and some specialized stuff to hold hats in place, etc. to streamline and optimize this process. Still, for any hat I'm ever likely to touch this gets the job done.

View attachment 788415

My (currently naked) PHD. I count 440 WPI. This is a nice hat body. A little less WPI than my wife's BBB, maybe not quite as evenly woven, but very nice, in my humble opinion. The straw in this hat is also flatter, it seems, whereas the straw in my wife's BBB hat is more rounded. Not sure what that means, if anything, but I find it interesting.

View attachment 788414

View attachment 788416


My wife's BBB. Very evenly woven hat. I can't say anything bad about it. I count 483 WPI.

View attachment 788417

View attachment 788418

The Oviatt Optimo. I count 1700 WPI. Considering this thing is probably around 60 years old, it’s in remarkably good condition. This is obviously the most finely woven hat I’ve ever handled, and probably ever will unless I get lucky on a future snipe hunt.

My count came out to 42.5 × 40, which is bang on 1700. You could reasonably argue for 43 × 41 (1763), and I wouldn’t fight anyone who called it 42 × 39 (1638). If I counted this hat three times, I’d probably end up with five different answers anyway.

But regardless of the exact number, it’s a genuinely impressive hat.

I hate that it has a few damaged spots in the straw. Then again, if it didn’t, I probably never would’ve had the opportunity to handle something like this in the first place.

View attachment 788419

View attachment 788420

I've got more Panama hats coming in the future, and I will continue to practice this WPI count process and include the results in a reply to this thread as they come in. If anyone sees anywhere that I could benefit from some education, please jump in. This is fun. My wife has called me a nerd at least six different times tonight lol.

Newt Montecristi - 323 - 360 WPI

Newt at the Royal sells everything from simple everyday Montecristis to some genuinely high-end weaves, (mostly overpriced, in my opinion, and marketed on romance rather than inherent value) and they've been involved in the Montecristi market for a long time. This lower-grade example is woven very consistently, which I appreciate.

 

[jeffgarf]

Stetson Stratoliner I think from 2010-2018 - correct me if I am wrong, please and thank you. This is my first Stratoliner. Anybody wants to sell me a fancy-pants vintage one that will wrap around my watermelon head, you let me know.

Gah, I can't wait for cold weather lol.

View attachment 789223 View attachment 789224 View attachment 789225 View attachment 789226 View attachment 789227 View attachment 789228 View attachment 789229 View attachment 789230 View attachment 789231

I think you meant this for a different thread?

 

[Judgmentalist]

I think you meant this for a different thread?

I did indeed, thank you for bringing this to my attention.

 

[Judgmentalist]

This is a Brent Black Safari Edition hat. It is all original in a Western style he no longer offers on his site. At the time this hat was sold Mr. Black offered the horse hair band as an option on some of these hats. "Safari Edition" is what Mr. Black calls his Cuenca hats. At the bottom of this post I have included a shot of the (exhaustive ) marketing blurb from the 2022 Wayback Machine archive for this hat.

This is not a Montecristi hat. It is, however, a very nice Panama hat. Mr. Black claims that these Safari Edition hats are woven as finely as some of his Montecristi hats. For this reason, I counted the weave the same way I would for a Montecristi. If anyone sees a problem with this methodology that is not obvious to me, please let me know.

I will say that visually, this weave looks to be about the same "grade" as my tier 1 BBB hats, and it, of course, is woven very evenly and blocked and finished with the obsessiveness Mr. Black is universally known for.

I bought this hat because I wanted to touch one before I decided if I wanted to add one of these to my Panama roster. I have nothing but positive things to say about it.

This hat doesn't fit me. I'm going to check in with my girls and see if one of them will wear it - otherwise this is likely to be a temporary resident. I think I got a pretty solid deal on this hat - if anyone on this forum is interested, let me know, and if I decide to let it go I will let you know first. This is not marketing; this hat is not for sale; I've never sold a hat before, just FYI.

Brent Black "West Panama" SE

 

[Pellie]

Non brand, but vintage probably late 60's, early 70's, and real "airly light" panama from Ecuador with a fantasy hatband and leather sweatband inside. Also a sizelabel inside. Sold in Germany by Schirm und Hutmoden G. Creuels in Aken (Aachen). I like the look of it.
Needed some steam when it came in.

 

[Judgmentalist]

This is a Brent Black Safari Edition hat. It is all original in a Western style he no longer offers on his site. At the time this hat was sold Mr. Black offered the horse hair band as an option on some of these hats. "Safari Edition" is what Mr. Black calls his Cuenca hats. At the bottom of this post I have included a shot of the (exhaustive ) marketing blurb from the 2022 Wayback Machine archive for this hat.

This is not a Montecristi hat. It is, however, a very nice Panama hat. Mr. Black claims that these Safari Edition hats are woven as finely as some of his Montecristi hats. For this reason, I counted the weave the same way I would for a Montecristi. If anyone sees a problem with this methodology that is not obvious to me, please let me know.

I will say that visually, this weave looks to be about the same "grade" as my tier 1 BBB hats, and it, of course, is woven very evenly and blocked and finished with the obsessiveness Mr. Black is universally known for.

I bought this hat because I wanted to touch one before I decided if I wanted to add one of these to my Panama roster. I have nothing but positive things to say about it.

This hat doesn't fit me. I'm going to check in with my girls and see if one of them will wear it - otherwise this is likely to be a temporary resident. I think I got a pretty solid deal on this hat - if anyone on this forum is interested, let me know, and if I decide to let it go I will let you know first. This is not marketing; this hat is not for sale; I've never sold a hat before, just FYI.

Brent Black "West Panama" SE
View attachment 789256 View attachment 789257 View attachment 789258 View attachment 789259 View attachment 789260 View attachment 789261 View attachment 789262 View attachment 789263 View attachment 789264 View attachment 789265

I am calling this one the "proto-BBB."

This hat was made and sold by The Panama Hat Company of the Pacific sometime between approximately 1988 and 2002. In 1988, Brent Black discovered Montecristi hats and began importing and wholesaling them through tourist shops and retailers in Hawaii under this business name.

The company name never gained significant recognition. Around 2002, Mr. Black shifted away from wholesaling (or at least from primarily supplying tourist shops with hat bodies), focused his marketing efforts on his personal name (DBA the original name), and began selling almost exclusively custom Montecristi hats directly to customers through his website.

What makes this hat interesting to me is that it predates the modern Brent Black brand.

When I found this hat for sale online, I thought it would be an interesting opportunity to examine an early Brent Black-era hat and compare its quality, materials, weave, and craftsmanship to the custom hats produced under the Brent Black name today. Regardless of the outcome, it offers a useful reference point for understanding how the company's products evolved over time.

I have found other, higher-WPI hats sold through Hawaiian retailers from this period that appear to bear Mr. Black's characteristic squiggle on the hat body, suggesting that they may have been selected or distributed through these same wholesale channels. This remains speculative, however, and this is the only example I have found thus far bearing The Panama Hat Company of the Pacific branding.

Perhaps most interestingly, this hats weave count falls below that of the lowest-WPI custom Montecristi hat offered by Brent Black today. I also find the color interesting, as there is noticeably more variation in the straw than I have seen in modern BBB hats. I don't know whether this variation was present when the hat was woven or if portions of the straw darkened differently with age. Still, in my opinion this is a quality hat body. I don't prefer the cloth sweatband, as I personally will never be folding any of my Panama hats. Let me know what you think of the quality and finish; please and thank you.

This hat doesn't fit me, but my wife has agreed to wear it, provided I take her on an appropriate tropical vacation to justify the event. She is a better negotiator than I am.

"proto-BBB" - 308 WPI according to my count

 

[JC Montecristi Hat]

I am calling this one the "proto-BBB."

This hat was made and sold by The Panama Hat Company of the Pacific sometime between approximately 1988 and 2002. In 1988, Brent Black discovered Montecristi hats and began importing and wholesaling them through tourist shops and retailers in Hawaii under this business name.

The company name never gained significant recognition. Around 2002, Mr. Black shifted away from wholesaling (or at least from primarily supplying tourist shops with hat bodies), focused his marketing efforts on his personal name (DBA the original name), and began selling almost exclusively custom Montecristi hats directly to customers through his website.

What makes this hat interesting to me is that it predates the modern Brent Black brand.

When I found this hat for sale online, I thought it would be an interesting opportunity to examine an early Brent Black-era hat and compare its quality, materials, weave, and craftsmanship to the custom hats produced under the Brent Black name today. Regardless of the outcome, it offers a useful reference point for understanding how the company's products evolved over time.

I have found other, higher-WPI hats sold through Hawaiian retailers from this period that appear to bear Mr. Black's characteristic squiggle on the hat body, suggesting that they may have been selected or distributed through these same wholesale channels. This remains speculative, however, and this is the only example I have found thus far bearing The Panama Hat Company of the Pacific branding.

Perhaps most interestingly, this hat's weave count falls below that of the lowest-WPI custom Montecristi hat offered by Brent Black today. I also find the color interesting, as there is noticeably more variation in the straw than I have seen in modern BBB hats. I don't know whether this variation was present when the hat was woven or if portions of the straw darkened differently with age. Still, in my opinion this is a quality hat body. I don't prefer the cloth sweatband, as I personally will never be folding any of my Panama hats. Let me know what you think of the quality and finish; please and thank you.

This hat doesn't fit me, but my wife has agreed to wear it, provided I take her on an appropriate tropical vacation to justify the event. She is a better negotiator than I am.

"proto-BBB" - 308 WPI according to my count
View attachment 790200
View attachment 790204
View attachment 790201 View attachment 790202 View attachment 790203

Brent Black started out selling Cuenca hats and regularly visited Homero Ortega, Serrano, Bernal, and his current supplier, K. Dorfzaun. At that time, Brent was probably not yet established as a company.

It makes sense that the hats he sold back then had a lower weave count than the ones he offers today. A hat with 14 WPI (weaves per inch), or grade 14, would be considered a Grueso hat and the lowest quality generally accepted as an authentic Montecristi. Hats with fewer than 13 WPI are typically regarded as simplified Montecristis; these were essentially the predecessors of today's Cuenca hats.

As a premium company, 18 WPI makes more sense, as many collectors and enthusiasts consider hats at that level to be fino quality hats.

 

[Judgmentalist]

Brent Black started out selling Cuenca hats and regularly visited Homero Ortega, Serrano, Bernal, and his current supplier, K. Dorfzaun. At that time, Brent was probably not yet established as a company.

It makes sense that the hats he sold back then had a lower weave count than the ones he offers today. A hat with 14 WPI (weaves per inch), or grade 14, would be considered a Grueso hat and the lowest quality generally accepted as an authentic Montecristi. Hats with fewer than 13 WPI are typically regarded as simplified Montecristis; these were essentially the predecessors of today's Cuenca hats.

As a premium company, 18 WPI makes more sense, as many collectors and enthusiasts consider hats at that level to be fino quality hats.

Thank you for this information. Most of what I wrote was taken from Brent Black’s website, and it would not surprise me if much of that text leans more toward marketing than history.

I agree that it makes sense for some of these earlier wholesale-market hats to be less finely woven than the more recent direct-to-consumer hats. That was my theory when I bought this hat, and my WPI count appears to support it, although one data point is only one data point.

If I misused the term “Montecristi,” it was not intentional. I’m happy to use whatever terminology is correct. In everyday conversation, I tend to say “Montecristi” when I’m feeling fancy and “Panama” when I’m not lol.

Brent Black still offers some Cuenca hats as a (slightly) lower-priced entry point on his website, and it would not surprise me if Cuenca hats always comprised a portion of his overall inventory, or if they were more common during the earlier wholesale period. He also offers hat bodies at “wholesale” under certain conditions from his existing stock. I do not know whether that is historically consistent with his earlier wholesale business model, the historical “Brent Black” premium/custom model, or a more recent development related to the later stages of Mr. Black’s career.

I am confused by the use of the term “Cuenca” in your response. My understanding is that the defining characteristic of a Cuenca or Montecristi hat is the region in which the hat body was woven. Is that not correct?

I had also previously assumed that weave type (llano vs. brisa) and weave fineness were definitive — Montecristi generally being associated with finer llano weaves and Cuenca with coarser brisa weaves. However, it appears there may be substantial overlap in both weave type and fineness in both directions. Is that accurate?

If anyone has access to better historical sources on this subject, I would genuinely enjoy reading them. Thank you.