Worth a look...BBC4 Mods and Rockers

[Ghost Rider]

Ah, the Jam.... if only Paul Weller hadn't had an evil twin who pretended to be him and made a couple of dodgy political comments in 77 and 79, before murdering the real Paul, precipitating the end of the Jam and masquerading as him through the awful Style Council and truly abominable solo career, representing everything the Jam railed against...

:eusa_clap. Couldn't agree more!

 

[bn1966]

How about: A nice M65 Parka with wolf trim? Shown here relaxing in it's winter cammo.

"I ride a GS scooter with my hair cut neat, I wear my wartime coat in the wind and sleet"

 

[pipvh]

I was a (very young) mod revivalist in 79/80. Not an easy or safe thing to be in South Devon, which was greebo central in those days! On the plus side I got to wear my old man's authentic 60s clobber (he was and remains a dandy). On the minus side there was a fair amount of aggro...

Mod, for me, is summed up most perfectly by Colin MacInnes' novel Absolute Beginners (which bears no proper resemblance to the fascinatingly awful film). If you've seen the BBC documentary in the OP, it's about what Gill Evans is calling 'continentalists.'

Once a mod, always a mod. Having said that, I've been a rocker fashion-wise ever since. Go figure.

 

[Stearmen]

It is kind of funny, but, I just realized, without America, Rockers would never have existed! Rock & Roll music, Marlon Brando, The Wild One, for the fashion style and attitude, even the motorcycles would not exist if it was not for the bigger is better attitude of us Yanks. Lets not forget good old Gunk!

 

[havocpaul]

The early British rockers would not have likely to have seen The Wild One, it having been banned almost immediately by the BBFC until 1967. They would also have only rode British bikes and not be seen riding anything American or heaven forbid, Japanese! Their choice of music was obviously American rock'n'roll alongside some of the great British artists of the time, we forget that the likes of Cliff Richard, Tommy Steele, Marty Wilde etc were rock'n'roll in the late 1950's and one of my all-time favourites, Johnny Kidd and The Pirates (The Pirates were quite a live force during the punk era too in the Dr Feelgood style). Gene Vincent spent most of the 1960's touring here as he had little success back in the States. Those archive pics on the LL site are interesting, I would guess Joey Ramone would have got his Lewis jacket when they first came over in 1976/77. Finally, Hi-Star regularly sells using that name on eBay although his BIN prices are not cheap. I have sold to him via eBay too.

 

[rocketeer]

Saw an interview with Tommy Steele on TV some years ago, he said he had got to be quite well known as a rock n roller and was a bit stroppy with two autograph hunting girls. The said to him something like, 'It's fans like us that buy your records, we dont have to' And with that comment(or as near to it) he said he went into musical theatre as he knew RnR would not last forever.

As to American bikes in the TV program, I only saw one Harley Davidson. There was only one main dealer I believe at that time, FH Warr and Sons who are still trading today. On bike runs Harley Ds usually outnumber old British stuff these days

 

[Dav]

There was an interesting comment on the TT programme last night, I didn't realise there had been over a hundred British motorcycle manufacturers over the years, all falling by the way side apart from two and they've certainly had they're ups and downs.

 

[rocketeer]

It is kind of funny, but, I just realized, without America, Rockers would never have existed! Rock & Roll music, Marlon Brando, The Wild One, for the fashion style and attitude, even the motorcycles would not exist if it was not for the bigger is better attitude of us Yanks. Lets not forget good old Gunk!

Bigger is better?
So remind us what bikes and years did the good old USA enter the IOM TT and win something, or any motorcycle races featuring world class smaller bikes. How would a typical Knucklehead or lets say the best America had(Croker?) fare against say a Manx Norton or BSA Gold Star.
American bikes have always been great looking and perfect for what they do, but I dont think world class racing is really one of them. Even now there are not a lot of caffff race bikes made from Harleys, and how would a well set up 650cc Triton fare against a stripped down Glide or Sportster. Sure there are a few specials that are fast but they are in the minority I would imagine.
And finally remember: Even Johnny Strabler needed a Triumph to look cool.(As did Steve Mqueen)
Johnny

 

[Edward]

The early British rockers would not have likely to have seen The Wild One, it having been banned almost immediately by the BBFC until 1967.

Yeah, the BBFC were an awful lot prissier in those days! I remember the first time I saw it, being a bit shocked by how tame it actually is. Great film, though - far superior to Rebel without a cause (albeit that I appreciate the latter far more now than when I was in my teens. It's really not a teen film, imo - despite it being about teens and marketed to that audience. One I find I approach very differently now. Much like Stand By Me, in that respect - which I loved from the instant I first saw it, but view through very different eyes twenty-five years later).

They would also have only rode British bikes and not be seen riding anything American or heaven forbid, Japanese!

Small and light was definitely fashionable... and in all likelihood, the UK still having a manufacturing base back in the Sixties, coupled with that era's "buy British" hoo hah, it was much easier and cheaper to go with the "home product". Weren't the post war trade tariffs still in force, at least until the early-mid Sixties? I know that affected guitars greatly, and thus British rock and roll.... Hank Marvin played the first Fender Stratocaster believed to have been imported into the UK, and that was in 1959; American guitars were virtually unseen over here at that point, owing to the punitive level of import taxes.

Their choice of music was obviously American rock'n'roll alongside some of the great British artists of the time, we forget that the likes of Cliff Richard, Tommy Steele, Marty Wilde etc were rock'n'roll in the late 1950's and one of my all-time favourites, Johnny Kidd and The Pirates (The Pirates were quite a live force during the punk era too in the Dr Feelgood style). Gene Vincent spent most of the 1960's touring here as he had little success back in the States.

My impression - not having been there at the time - has long been that the American influence was indirect. There was an element of commonality in a very general sense, but as anyone who has ever been to the Goodwood Revival and seen the American-based biker crowd lined up not far from the Brit Sixties rockers... worlds apart on the details. It's worth bearing in mind that popular culture in those days was significantly less homogenous than it is now. Yes, there were Hollywood films, but Britain had a thriving film industry still in the early Sixties, much more manufacturing, fewer imports, no web to carry the latest foreign pop culture in, very different television... Very different times. Obviously the gap lessened over the following decades, though not as quickly, I think, as might appear in retrospect. The retrospective homogenisation with the US popular culture is in part, I believe, an influence of the nature of the modern vintage scene. It's certainly the case that my own looks and tastes in wardrobe and cinema are significantly more Americanised than I think would have been likely to have been the reality for my parents and grandparents when they lived through that period.

The music the rockers loved was undoubtedly influenced by American rock and roll, alongside the British take on it. The Brits had a thriving rock and roll scene from about 59 to 62/3ish, at which point things morphed a lot with the outbreak of the Beatles. (I'd never deny the quality of much of their output, but I do find it a shame that their huge influence and popularity has somewhat stifled awareness of some great stuff that was going on over here immediately before and even during their career.) Teddy Boys also continued as a distinct subculture through this time (and to the present day), though it seems to me there was definitely an overlap between the two. Certainly the Rockers inherited the Ted's love of rock and roll. The difference being that rock and roll music was as much a part of the rocker thing as the motorcycles, whereas - contrary to popular belief these days - Teddy Boys predated rock and roll, adopting it later when it came along.


Re the Pirates and punk.... there was a huge link between rock and roll and punk rock. Same outsider attitude, same rebelliousness.... Some draw both back through the family tree to the blues - I'd add jazz. And Mozart. Mozart was in all likelihood the first punk. Anyhow. What folks remember now about the 77 Revolution are a handfull of quotes from Talcy Malcy and Johnny Rotten about it being Year Zero for music and such. In terms of a new DIY creative approach, maybe so, but even then Lydon admitted a love for the Stooges, and outside of the Pistols and the scene around the Bromley Contingent (who all loved old reggae too...), many of them were much more akin to what the Ramones were trying to do - i.e. to take rock and roll out of the hands of tedious proggery and take it back to its roots. Uncle Joe was a big fan of rockabilly; he'd come from the pub rock scene, playing rock and roll with the 101ers before he joined members of London SS to form the Clash. The Clash boys used to sneak into Ted bars incognito to listen to rock and roll bands. One night - forgetting they were fully Tedded up - they decided to stop off in their own punk local for last orders on the way home. This at the height of the Ted/ Punk schism. Story goes they had to fight their way out of there.

Those archive pics on the LL site are interesting, I would guess Joey Ramone would have got his Lewis jacket when they first came over in 1976/77.

Around the time of the hugely significant July 76 gig at the Roundhouse would make sense, yeah. The photos look about that period, when the Ramones 'uniform' was still taking shape.

As to American bikes in the TV program, I only saw one Harley Davidson. There was only one main dealer I believe at that time, FH Warr and Sons who are still trading today. On bike runs Harley Ds usually outnumber old British stuff these days

Yeah, that retrospective thing... Such a shame all those old Brit bike makes are gone, but I suppose that's the nature of things. Back when, a motorcycle wasn't a lifestyle statement, but a working man's transport. Sidecar for the ladies. The motor car becoming affordable for the masses is what killed them off, I believe... further exacerbated by the fact that nowadays it can be so dangerous out there. The reason I don't run a bike in London has nothing to do with bikes being dangerous (which they're not, handled correctly) - it's the sheer number of idiots on the road in cars who don't know how to drive around bikes. Exactly the same reason I don't pedal-cycle here.

Most any colours gang I've seen riding in the UK, especially the Angels, are on Harleys - seems to go with the territory (that and hatred of Hondas.... I think that's also an import of Team Harley? I'd expect more Triumphs to be ridden among those guys if it was rooted in a belief that the Japanese imports killed the domestic industry). Other than that, I tend only to see them being ridden by midlife crisis city-banker types, but that could be a London thing. I'm sure the fact they're remarkable expensive here compared to the competition does go some way to limit them to the lifestylers and the wealthy.

There was an interesting comment on the TT programme last night, I didn't realise there had been over a hundred British motorcycle manufacturers over the years, all falling by the way side apart from two and they've certainly had they're ups and downs.

Such a shame, isn't it? If I had the money and it became safe to ride in London (I dream of a Mayor who blanket bans all car transport in zone one bar black cabs, busses, and deliveries - the latter of which would only be permitted between midnight and five am), I'd love to have a few old British bikes about. Triumph TigerCub would be nice... and some of those old bikes from the twenties where they aren't much more than a glorified push-bike with a small engine. If I could only have one bike, though, it would definitely be a modern production Royal Enfield 350cc Bullet....

And finally remember: Even Johnny Strabler needed a Triumph to look cool.(As did Steve Mqueen)
Johnny

I remember reading something about how Strabler's Triumph especially was a big kick in the teeth for Harley... I don't dislike Harleys per se, but the Triumph always had a pull they could never equal for me. Macqueen making a break for Switzerland on one (and all those "Nazis" chasing him on....er.... remarkably similar Triumphs.... ) was almost as cool as Strabler.

 

[havocpaul]

There were also stories about US servicemen in WW2 ETO having been issued with Harleys desperately trying to swap, beg, borrow, steal a British issue bike that would actually work! When I was first involved with the punk scene (right at the start in the UK) initially many of the bands would try and hide their music tastes as if it really was the start of something totally new. The very early Pistols gigs saw them doing old songs by a variety of artists, The Who, Small Faces, Dave Berry, The Monkees, etc etc. It was Malcolm who wrote the 'script' that they had to read from despite the fact he had briefly managed the New York Dolls and made his name supplying rock'n'roll clothing to the Teds from the early 1970's. It didn't take long for the image to drop and the fashion blended Ted clothing (creepers, drapes) and the punk DIY style, The Clash may have sung 'I'm So Bored With The USA' but they didn't mean it especially after they had first toured there and they fell in love with all things Americana and even had Bo Diddley supporting them. Of course the Teds resented this 'hijacking' of their style which caused some of the rucks and so reminding many of those mods v rockers from the decade before. I knew personally many of the punk bands and they were very knowledgeable about older music and were often very keen collectors of old vinyl. Generation X (Billy Idol) would soundcheck Led Zep and Deep Purple tracks before gigs but usually behind closed doors!

 

[bn1966]

Youth cults, a funny thing: My Father & his mates were London Teddy Boys in the 1950s, some of the Teds rode Lambrettas. Drape suits were subdued and not Showaddy Waddy dayglo colors. Bands they saw at the local youth club included an early The Who (High Numbers) in the early 60s. We then start to enter the heyday of the Mods & Rockers (Father's busy raising a family & wears paisley & grows a beard). A few years down the line the Mods morph into hippies & Skinheads (the Skinheads / hard Mods rule 1969). Skinheads morph into Suedeheads & boot boys and tough Glam rockers. Fashion and music takes a nosedive IMHO into the 1970's, reviving with punk & the Mod & Skinhead revivals of the late 70's; Teds / Rockabilly has a Renaissance and Rude boys / Two Tone appears. Going out in the late 70's early 80's was a dangerous business with the number of 'Tribes' on the street. The Rockers seem to remain a constant. At school due to Fathers influence I became a Rockabilly (Mom wouldn't let me be a Ted) and then with the advent of Two Tone my hair got shorter..I purchased a Harrington and nicked Grandad's Trilby. With Quadrophenia being released I purchased a Parka, Boating Blazer and joined the Mod revival. Next came my first Vespa & a host of tribal enemies. Fed up with the Mod revival the scooter club I rode with looked back in time to the 50's & over the Pond to USA 50's styles. We got 'Flat Tops' wore leather bike jackets, Bowling shirts etc. We embraced a sound combining the energy of punk with Rockabilly and became Psychobillys. I discovered G1 jackets & my life was changed forever. We also wore MA1 flight jackets (this was to have a huge influence later on). Through Grunge & Britpop I continued to ride scooters and at times additionally drove classic British cars, haircuts varied from Nirvana style to more 60's mod influenced..hair loss crept in and with no option other than a comb over...a crop came back in. I still ride scooters (that die was cast years ago), wear a parka in winter for dog-walking (not on me Vespa); Flight nylons have become an obsession and when I can afford it I buy good quality reproduction WW2 leather flying jackets (often utilized on scooter). Underneath these and flight nylons I wear Kevlar and body Armour (coming off hurts!!) The wife sometimes accompanies me on scooter rallies wearing her Lewis leather.

 

[Edward]

There were also stories about US servicemen in WW2 ETO having been issued with Harleys desperately trying to swap, beg, borrow, steal a British issue bike that would actually work!

I've heard of that... also, looking for use of captured German kit of all sorts, which was rumoured (whether true or not) to be better than some of the stuff the Allies had. Binoculars I remember reading this about somewhere...

When I was first involved with the punk scene (right at the start in the UK) initially many of the bands would try and hide their music tastes as if it really was the start of something totally new.

I imagine it must have felt like it, given that the influence they hearkened back to was beyond the living memory of many involved in those early days?

The very early Pistols gigs saw them doing old songs by a variety of artists, The Who, Small Faces, Dave Berry, The Monkees, etc etc.

Mn, I've got a recording somewhere of "Original Pistols Live", which was an album released that comprised a live recording of, I believe, their second or third ever gig. A couple of covers in the mix - a particularly acerbic Substitute, and for my money they outdid Iggy on No Fun - alongside some cracking Poistols originals. Rotten's patter was already pretty well established that early on, it seems. Didn't get to see them live for the first time myself til 2002, but he's not changed much... still knows how to play an audience. (Saw 'em twice in Brixton in 07, too; I have this great image in my head of Lydon sitting backstage sniggering at how riled up he'd gotten the audience by sticking Goldie on stage for half an hour. Jinkies, it's not often you see an act bomb that hard - through no fault of his own, I might add).

It was Malcolm who wrote the 'script' that they had to read from despite the fact he had briefly managed the New York Dolls and made his name supplying rock'n'roll clothing to the Teds from the early 1970's.

Far from flawless, but to be honest I warmed to Malcolm from afar in later years. He was an interesting character; I'd love to read a definitive biography (did he ever write an autobiography?).

It didn't take long for the image to drop and the fashion blended Ted clothing (creepers, drapes) and the punk DIY style, The Clash may have sung 'I'm So Bored With The USA' but they didn't mean it especially after they had first toured there and they fell in love with all things Americana and even had Bo Diddley supporting them.

The whole relationship with the US and its iconography is fascinating - the rejection of unthinking fawning over it, yet adoptation too of what was great about it...

Of course the Teds resented this 'hijacking' of their style which caused some of the rucks and so reminding many of those mods v rockers from the decade before.

...and then the Eighties dawn and Psychobilly brought both factions together (musically, anyhow) in one unholy, glorious spectacle...

I knew personally many of the punk bands and they were very knowledgeable about older music and were often very keen collectors of old vinyl. Generation X (Billy Idol) would soundcheck Led Zep and Deep Purple tracks before gigs but usually behind closed doors!

Ha, yes.... I think the Yanks were a bit more open about that sort of thing (I'm thinking of the Dickies especially as I type this - their run on Paranoid, Nights in White Satin, and so on...).

Friend of mine is a near neighbour and pal of Dave Vanian and his wife. Met him at a gig a couple of years ago, really nice guy. We spoke for a while about his mat Deckard suits. He's also got a rockabillyesque side project that's been around for a while, and apparently he's really well versed in the whole thing.

 

[havocpaul]

Most WW2 German kit and equipment was better especially earlier in the war, of course their bikes were top quality BMW's, The British had their BSA's and the Americans their underpowered, unreliable Harley's!
I always liked Malcolm even though he was selfish and ruthless at times, but aren't most good managers in rock? He never published an autobiography and certainly an unbiased biography is long overdue. He took his lead from the great 1950/60s manager Larry Parnes who handled and named many of those classic British acts, Fury, Wilde etc. Dave Vanian was always a good guy, after the Damned he had the band The Phantom Chords who had a very 60's sound in the Joe Meek style with hints of rockabilly too.

 

[Stearmen]

Bigger is better?
So remind us what bikes and years did the good old USA enter the IOM TT and win something, or any motorcycle races featuring world class smaller bikes. How would a typical Knucklehead or lets say the best America had(Croker?) fare against say a Manx Norton or BSA Gold Star.
American bikes have always been great looking and perfect for what they do, but I dont think world class racing is really one of them. Even now there are not a lot of caffff race bikes made from Harleys, and how would a well set up 650cc Triton fare against a stripped down Glide or Sportster. Sure there are a few specials that are fast but they are in the minority I would imagine.
And finally remember: Even Johnny Strabler needed a Triumph to look cool.(As did Steve Mqueen)
Johnny

I must have been to subtle for this crowd. I did not say any American bikes were used by the Rockers, I said, the motorcycles would not exist if it was not for the bigger is better attitude of us Yanks. All the British motorcycle companies punched out their bikes to first 650cc and finally 750 and bigger, because of the U.S. market, and the bigger bikes we demanded! A number of these models were available to us a year before the home market got their hands on them. It was, "export or die," if the Yanks want bigger, we will give them bigger. The very name, Bonneville and Thunderbird were American inspired. Over here, only sissies rode bikes smaller then 650cc on the streets, though, I have owned many smaller.

 

[Stearmen]

The early British rockers would not have likely to have seen The Wild One, it having been banned almost immediately by the BBFC until 1967. They would also have only rode British bikes and not be seen riding anything American or heaven forbid, Japanese! Their choice of music was obviously American rock'n'roll alongside some of the great British artists of the time, we forget that the likes of Cliff Richard, Tommy Steele, Marty Wilde etc were rock'n'roll in the late 1950's and one of my all-time favourites, Johnny Kidd and The Pirates (The Pirates were quite a live force during the punk era too in the Dr Feelgood style). Gene Vincent spent most of the 1960's touring here as he had little success back in the States. Those archive pics on the LL site are interesting, I would guess Joey Ramone would have got his Lewis jacket when they first came over in 1976/77. Finally, Hi-Star regularly sells using that name on eBay although his BIN prices are not cheap. I have sold to him via eBay too.

Every old Rocker I have meant, new about the Wild One. You can ban a movie, but you can not ban all the photos in magazines. Could be, the forbidden fruit thing, now that you mention it. I know they rode British, we were responsible for the increase in size of the bikes to 650cc and beyond, because of, the bigger is better attitude over here! Also, Bonneville and Thunderbird names.

 

[Stearmen]

In fairness, since I just took responsibility for some of the best looking British motorcycles ever built, we Americans, were also responsible for some of the ugliest ever made! The Norton Highrider, they should all be made into caferacers, Triumph TXS, all the mini Apehanger handlebars! I have a few in my shed, first thing to come off. On the other hand, if BSA would have listened to the U.S. dealers, the Rocket Three and the Trident would have been great hits right out of the box.

 

[The Wiser Hatter]

Will clear some time to watch this on the telly. Hey is that a Peniguin on the telly.
[video=youtube_share;1k1ccguXiws]http://youtu.be/1k1ccguXiws[/video]

 

[nick123]

http://youtu.be/6LFixsKOAtM

 

[Edward]

I always wondered.... were all those headlights on mod scooters actually functional, or just for show? Not an aesthetic I cared for, myself - much preferred a scooter with simpler lines. Sort of like this bike, except with less of a mid-section.

Founjd another shot of one I posted earlier.... looks like a more modern run at the same thing:

Ther traditional scooter shape is definitely easier to rise when you're in a suit, what with not having to throw your leg over it, et al.

 

[Stearmen]

Bigger is better?
So remind us what bikes and years did the good old USA enter the IOM TT and win something, or any motorcycle races featuring world class smaller bikes. How would a typical Knucklehead or lets say the best America had(Croker?) fare against say a Manx Norton or BSA Gold Star.
American bikes have always been great looking and perfect for what they do, but I dont think world class racing is really one of them. Even now there are not a lot of caffff race bikes made from Harleys, and how would a well set up 650cc Triton fare against a stripped down Glide or Sportster. Sure there are a few specials that are fast but they are in the minority I would imagine.
And finally remember: Even Johnny Strabler needed a Triumph to look cool.(As did Steve Mqueen)
Johnny

In 1911 Indian took 1st and 3rd in the Senior TT. They would have taken 2nd, but Charlie Collier was disqualified for taking on fuel on the course, which was forbidden. Also in 1911 Jake De Rosier raced the best English rider Charles Collier, at Brookland, Jake won two of the three races. Don't forget Calvin Rayborn II on his Harley XRTT at the 1972 Trans Atlantic races, where he won three of the six races. He would have made it four, but without factory support, his old worn engine packed it in with him leading! No one at those races will ever forget Cal, who proved Americans could turn right, and even in the rain! [video=youtube;IZ3upMyNu80]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZ3upMyNu80[/video]