Why the X

[GWD]

Fair Enough! Thanks Alan!

 

[suitedcboy]

I will agree that in my experience that hat quality has risen and fallen a few times in my days of buying new hats. I asked a custom hatter I see at Horse events about that once and he said the hat body makers he has to choose from are fewer these days and the quality from the same maker rises and falls. The animal pelts that hair for felting is derived from will vary with harsh and mild winters.
The number of steps used in finishing and whether by machine or hand will affect the perceived quality too.

Hatco is not the same place now it was a few years ago based on my experience and on what Hatco stated. The OR GWD purchased may not be an example of what Hatco turns out today.

 

[Stan]

Welcome Back!

Hi,

Firstly, a 'welcome back!' to Hatco. I haven't been here long, only since February. In reading the 'back issues', though I thought it was grand to have Hatco (the person) around, and then I felt somehow sad when I figured out he hadn't been around in a while.

No matter how odd what must happen in the commercial world may seem, I for one am always glad for the opportunity to understand such things.

One thing I noticed right away as I started my adventure into the world of hats - there are precious few hat shops around. There's some mall and department store offerings, mostly wool felt and not at all what I wanted.

There's a few western stores around, and what they have are fur, but are heavy and stiff and not what I once had by way of a vintage fur felt hat. I was after a replacement after having the old one meet it's end.

That took me to eBay, and now I have way too many hats, some of which I'll soon re-sell as I've been buying myself an education here more than anything.

I have a few Stetson and Resistol branded hats. They're vintage, and I can say that most of them were probably sold in dedicated hat shops and were originally open crown.

I wish that there were hats of the same quality still, and there probably are, in those fine brands. However, finding a place to buy that level of quality is proving to be the real issue. At least for me, it is. There's pretty much nothing in the way of hat shops around Raleigh, NC.....

A couple weeks ago, I took a trip and there was a sizable western wear shop along the way. I went in hoping to pick up a new high-end Stetson Open Road. I was wearing a vintage one, a 3x one from the 1950's that has moth bites and otherwise looks it age. I found nothing in the store, which had a very large selection of hats (that in itself was a wonder for me to behold), that came close to the way the vintage felt feels.

Now, that just might mean that the store isn't carrying all that Stetson offers.

One thing I learned early on, is that the 'X' rating is only a relative quality indication within a brand and era. I can't compare across brands, and I also can't compare within brands but across eras. It'd be useless to compare a Stetson 3X from 1950 with a Stetson of any X made in 2008. You know, for all the discussion on this over time, it's never been something that gave me even a moment's concern. I accept it for what it is.

However, learning about fur types and quality levels is always facinating! Please, continue!

As far as modern custom makers' felt vs. the vintage goes, I have a VS from Art that is pretty much exactly the same in feel as a new old stock vintage Adam I bought off of JohnnyPhi in one of the auctions right here on this site.

As I say, I've been buying an eduction in hats since the first of the year.

I'm very interested in that Stetson Nostalgia that's rapidly coming along. I'm going to buy one, not because I *need* another hat, but because I (a) want to continue my education with a top-notch modern production hat, and (b) I want to encourage Hatco (the company) to produce more new models as close to the vintage as they can reasonably make in this day and age.

So, there's my 3 cents worth (gotta raise it due to inflation!).....

Stan

 

[PabloElFlamenco]

Just been reading through this thread in length. Welcome back, HATCO. It think it is probably a matter of some degree of necessity for a professional, especially one associated with the production side of such famous brand names as Stetson (and others), to get and monitor the ever-changing pulse of our more or less whacko community. Whilst we do not, I believe, represent the "average" consumer of hats, we (perhaps better said, some of us) do -again, I believe- establish a yardstick to measure "quality" (and style?) to some considerable degree.

At risk of being repetitive and boring, the worst hat I have is the "newest produced" one, sporting -I think- 10 X, a Shepler hat "made by Milano", and feeling like it's made from a waterlogged (for the weight) cutout of wall-to-wall carpet. Any one asking why then I bought the thing, well HATCO did talk about "how a hat feels" and that is exactly what did not, and could not, appear in my purchasing process: I bought it from the internet... That is part of the risk of buying sensitive products without seeing them, without "having a good feel" (this objection does not apply to TV sets, or cameras...but hats are a difference piece of cake). And, of course, I bought that hat before reading this forum.

My very best hats are: Stetson. Nutria quality. A "100", a "20". Love them. They were also bought via internet, unfelt (not really an intended pun), and -as it turned out- their felt quality is superb.

All we, the purchasing public, the producers, can hope is that the market for hats will grow. This means the manufactured hats; obviously the custom hat makers cannot function as a yardstick for the market in general: they make too few hats, granted, extra-ordinary hats, that cannot ever show up in statistics. Neither can we, in all honesty, expect "the general public" to be willing to dish out more-or-less considerable money on ... a hat.

I was in Mexico last week. The old hat manufacturer Tardan's sole remaining hat store (on the Plaza de la Constitución) looked like something from the far past. In general, only old men nowadays seem to wear the otherwise so nice (mostly straw) cowboy hats. I was very (very) disappointed on the leather goods I saw in local markets (junk!). I could have gone to Cuadra, but...ran out of time (and the money was also a consideration). The leather "western" belts I have here in Belgium (Tony Lama and other brands) are, in part, "China". The shirts "styled in Texas, made in Indonesia". I don't want any Chinese hat. Period. A hat is not a keyboard.

There's so much work to do! I wish HATCO perseverence and, again, good to have this person on our board.

 

[tortswon]

A little sociology

Following up on Pablo's very cogent points, I think another factor in the hat buying equation is the difference in people who were buying hats before WWII and today. I am not a sociologist but I can pretend to be one here.

Prior to WWII, there was a kind of innocence in America. We here euphemistically that it was a "simpler time." That is what, I think, draws many of us to this Lounge, a desire to return to the attitudes and values of a bygone era. It is why we like to wear a fedora or a Panama, or talk about stockings or making the perfect Mai Tai.

I think people back then were willing to accept something that was designated 10X or 30X without really understanding the full nuance of what that designation meant. Back then, people bought their hats from a person who they knew either personally or by reputation. That person's word might be good enough to get someone to buy a particular hat or he might have had a good sales pitch telling the prospective customer that he was privy to certain information and knew what all that "X stuff" means. The customer could see and feel the hat and try it on and see how it looks. With few exceptions, those days are gone. Most of us do not live in a place where we can try on a dozen hats made by different manufacturers. We rely upon the internet which has many limitations. We buy from people we do not know. We sell to people we do not know. It is completely impersonal, just what it wasn't "back in the day."

We have also changed as people. We want every ingredient labelled. We go online and research products. We have so much information at our fingertips 24/7 that we have lost some of our faith in the unknown. We are card counters at the great blackjack table of life. The idea of something measured by "X" is no longer acceptable to many of us as there is no standard for this "X" known to the general public. Unlike our forebears, we are less inclined to trust in the unknown since most of us have not faced the real "unknown" (say a depression or a landing beach in France) and survived. We do not like the unknown. Maybe we are not as brave as we once were.

Be that as it may, it may be time to rethink the "X" as a marketing tool. Perhaps we are no longer able to accept "X-factors" as we once did. We now resume our regular programming.

 

[Lefty]

Tortswon,

Respectfully, if you pick up a few of the older (60s or earlier) Stetsons, you'll see that while the exact meaning of the X was still a mystery, it really did mean a difference in quality. You can easily feel the difference within the brand. I haven't handled a wide variety of other brands that toyed with the X, so I cannot speak to their use of it. At some point, Stetson (Hatco) just went crazy with the X, and now you can buy a pretty lousy straw in 10x - whatever that means.

 

[HATCO]

Tortswon,

Respectfully, if you pick up a few of the older (60s or earlier) Stetsons, you'll see that while the exact meaning of the X was still a mystery, it really did mean a difference in quality. You can easily feel the difference within the brand. I haven't handled a wide variety of other brands that toyed with the X, so I cannot speak to their use of it. At some point, Stetson (Hatco) just went crazy with the X, and now you can buy a pretty lousy straw in 10x - whatever that means.

Straws are a different beast all together. We only buy first quality bodies. We don't buy 2nds. We don't control the body making process in straw. I only know the basics of straw qualities.

 

[Bud-n-Texas]

At some point, Stetson (Hatco) just went crazy with the X, and now you can buy a pretty lousy straw in 10x - whatever that means.

Lefty, there are as many variables in the composition of a hat as there are wearers and their expectations. I will relay this story that happened to me. I purchased a 100X Resistol off of the INTERNET. When it arrived, it was beautiful. The problem for me soon arose, in that it was so hot, that I could not wear it without sweat pouring down my face. I stopped in my local Cavanders and was told that the sweat in Resistols were no longer leather. I was quite upset as I have been exclusively wearing Resistol straws since the early 80's. I took the liner out and opened up the diamond vents on the side of the crown, but still could not face the Texas heat and soon went back to my sweat stained Resistol that was to be replaced. I was left with the dilemma, of what hat would I now be purchasing. If all Resistols had this "plastic" sweat, I knew that was not an option. Sometime after that I ran across the phone number for the Hatco outlet in Garland. I called just to express my dissatisfaction, with the product that now adorned my hat rack, rather than my head. I was given another number to call and did. I will not call names, but the number was to a officer of Hatco. He listened to my story, corrected the wrong information that I received from Cavanders and helped me find the hat that suited my needs. Seems the 100X hat that I bought off of the net, was intended for cutting competition. For those unaware these event require a hat that will just about stick to the head, so as not to come off during the event. My how getting the right information can clarify a situation. This story along with close to 40 years of using the Hatco products, will have me give them the benefit of the doubt, unless they show a reason not to be trusted.

 

[HATCO]

Bud,

Did you get a comfort sweat? I have feeling that is what you purchased. As you said those hat sweats were specifically designed for working cowboys and rodeo cowboys like team ropers, calf ropers, and bulldoggers etc. It will stick to your head, especially when you sweat and is marketed as such. Their should have been a brim tag on the hat denoting what it had a comfort sweat. My theory is that someone took it off, when they tried it on previous to you. PRCA rules require a contestant to wear a hat. If they can buy one that is less likely to fall off in the ring when they are competing they will. Hence the comfort sweat.

 

[jimmy the lid]

I actually have a few Gun Clubs with the Comfort Sweat. I wasn't quite sure what it was the first time I tried it out, but it actually feels pretty darn good.

Cheers,
JtL

 

[tortswon]

Making the point

Lefty, I think you are making my point. With the dearth of hat shops, where can a guy go to physically pick up hats to compare? I live in Philadelphia, which is not exactly a small town. I do not know of anywhere I can go and pick up a modern Stetson locally let alone a vintage Stetson for comparison purposes. There is no one I can speak with face to face to explain differences to me, other than possibly a member here at the Lounge.

I remember as a kid going into hat stores all along South Street and seeing hats of all descriptions which I could pick up, try on, and be informed about by someone with decades in the business.

Bottom line is that when I see "X's" in a hat description I am not being informed merely because I am inexperienced but because it means different things to different manufacturers. This lack of consistency is frustrating to someone new to this hobby and, I believe, ultimately harmful to the continuation of the hobby because it is a standard without meaning to those not in the business of manufacturing hats. Best, Sam

 

[HATCO]

Lefty, I think you are making my point. With the dearth of hat shops, where can a guy go to physically pick up hats to compare? I live in Philadelphia, which is not exactly a small town. I do not know of anywhere I can go and pick up a modern Stetson locally let alone a vintage Stetson for comparison purposes. There is no one I can speak with face to face to explain differences to me, other than possibly a member here at the Lounge.

I remember as a kid going into hat stores all along South Street and seeing hats of all descriptions which I could pick up, try on, and be informed about by someone with decades in the business.

Bottom line is that when I see "X's" in a hat description I am not being informed merely because I am inexperienced but because it means different things to different manufacturers. This lack of consistency is frustrating to someone new to this hobby and, I believe, ultimately harmful to the continuation of the hobby because it is a standard without meaning to those not in the business of manufacturing hats. Best, Sam

First,

X's are no longer used in dress hats to denote quality.

Second,

Western Felts which still use X's are manufactured to be much stiffer than a dress hat. They are made that way on purpose.

We get requests all the time to make our hats stiffer.

Comparing a vintage dress hat with X's in it to modern western with X's in it isn't exactly apples to apples.

 

[Lefty]

Bud,
I'm glad you got the answer you were looking for, and it's great that you got to talk to someone at the company who could set the record straight. However, should I need to talk to vice-president in charge of mystical information at Hatco to find out whether my sweatband is made of plastic?

Tortswon,
As I said, the business of the Xs having to do with quality is limited to vintage. Anything after some point in the late 60s, and you've got a heap of hats with anywhere from 3 to 100 Xs that mean nothing.

Hatco,
So, now the X that means nothing (that you can tell us) in a dress hat means a different kind of nothing in a Western? Maybe they should be Ws. Of course, when there's no information behind an X (or W), then X=0, making a 100x worth...

 

[HATCO]

Bud,
I'm glad you got the answer you were looking for, and it's great that you got to talk to someone at the company who could set the record straight. However, should I need to talk to vice-president in charge of mystical information at Hatco to find out whether my sweatband is made of plastic?

Tortswon,
As I said, the business of the Xs having to do with quality is limited to vintage. Anything after some point in the late 60s, and you've got a heap of hats with anywhere from 3 to 100 Xs that mean nothing.

Hatco,
So, now the X that means nothing that you can tell us in a dress hat means a different kind of nothing in a Western? Maybe they should be Ws. Of course, when there's no information behind an X (or W), then X=0, making a 100x worth...

He bought a hat designed with a sweat for a specific purpose. It's not plastic. It's leather bonded. There is literature that goes with the hat. We don't dart tag it to the hat. Instead it is held in place by the trim. It could have been taken out by a previous wearer or by staff, or it could have fallen out when putting the item on store shelves.

I'm not sure I understand the first part addressed to me. I'm saying western hats require a different type of finishing. They require more stiffener and need to be harder than your typical Dress hat. I have no problem comparing a modern dress hat to a vintage dress hat. That is something I'm looking to improve. Comparing western felts to dress felts is like comparing wine to vinegar. They are made of the same thing and go through a similar process, but they taste different and have totally different uses. Would you clean with white wine? Would you serve chilled vinegar at dinner?

Regarding OPen Roads.... People's problems with the hat might be due to the fact that probably 90% of these hats are sold in western stores who prefer their hats as noted above "stiff". It's a popular item that we keep in stock. If a dress store were to order it they would get the instock item.. I don't want to speak for the factory floor but if a store were to place a minimum order they could get the hats in a certain configuration. Maybe like less stiffener.

I think I have a fairly thick skin, I take constructive criticism of our hats to heart and hopefully as others may profess I am trying to improve them, but if this turns into a bash fest like above, I'll be honest it's not worth my time. There wasn't anything polite in the above post and it wasn't constructive. If I misread your tone and comments Lefty I apologize but thats the way I took them.

 

[indycop]

Hatco do you foresee it being a problem to get the wide brim binding for the new nostalgia?

 

[GWD]

Hatco,

Thanks for your above explanation in regards to the Open Roads. I don't know if Orvis is considered a Western Store or the Open Road I purchased has the extra stiffeners in it. But it may explain things a bit better.

 

[Lefty]

I'm not sure I understand the first part addressed to me. I'm saying western hats require a different type of finishing. They require more stiffener and need to be harder than your typical Dress hat.

I think I have a fairly thick skin, I take constructive criticism of our hats to heart and hopefully as others may profess I am trying to improve them, but if this turns into a bash fest like above, I'll be honest it's not worth my time. There wasn't anything polite in the above post and it wasn't constructive. If I misread your tone and comments Lefty I apologize but thats the way I took them.

As to the first point, the current regime of hatco may not have created the X mess, but they are upholding it. By using the X in any context (western, dress, straw, or otherwise), but refusing to define it, it becomes a meaningless advertising tool, like "new", "improved", or "ultimate". You've stated that the basis of the mystery is to not allow the blend formula to fall into the hands of the competition. This, however, keeps everyone in the dark. As I previously stated, Stetson no longer has the reputation where I'll just believe that a 10x is superior to a 3x.

As to criticism, you may be Hatco's representative here, but you are not Hatco - whether you are an employee, officer, director, stock holder, etc. I am unaware as to Hatco's current status (whether it's publicly traded, closely held, etc.), but am certain that, based upon the broad range of its products, it is comprised of more than a few individuals. This attempt at personalization of a corporation is a nice public relations gesture, but will not be mistaken as the casual conversation of the struggling hatter working out of his own store or home. My criticisms are pointed toward long standing company policies. If you are going to take personal offense at my comments, then you must take personal responsibility for your company's choices, both past and present.

It is not my intention to insult you personally. It is my intention to bring to your attention the reason for my frustration, as a consumer, with the company's X policy. Remember that you started this thread with the statement that the company doesn't want to make information about its own product public.

 

[Aaron Hats]

I'm not sure why you're so upset about the use of X's. They're simply a way to designate the different quality levels within a given brand. You can't compare a Stetson 4X to a Bailey 4X but you can see and feel the difference between a Stetson 4X, 10X, 20X, etc. The X ratings have never been and never will be an industry standard for everyone to follow and it's naive to think it ever could be.

Aaron

 

[HATCO]

As to the first point, the current regime of hatco may not have created the X mess, but they are upholding it. By using the X in any context (western, dress, straw, or otherwise), but refusing to define it, it becomes a meaningless advertising tool, like "new", "improved", or "ultimate". You've stated that the basis of the mystery is to not allow the blend formula to fall into the hands of the competition. This, however, keeps everyone in the dark. As I previously stated, Stetson no longer has the reputation where I'll just believe that a 10x is superior to a 3x.

As to criticism, you may be Hatco's representative here, but you are not Hatco - whether you are an employee, officer, director, stock holder, etc. I am unaware as to Hatco's current status (whether it's publicly traded, closely held, etc.), but am certain that, based upon the broad range of its products, it is comprised of more than a few individuals. This attempt at personalization of a corporation is a nice public relations gesture, but will not be mistaken as the casual conversation of the struggling hatter working out of his own store or home. My criticisms are pointed toward long standing company policies. If you are going to take personal offense at my comments, then you must take personal responsibility for your company's choices, both past and present.

It is not my intention to insult you personally. It is my intention to bring to your attention the reason for my frustration, as a consumer, with the company's X policy. Remember that you started this thread with the statement that the company doesn't want to make information about its own product public.

1. I'm not here at the personal behest of the company. I'm doing it on my own accord. I strongly prefer dress hats to western hats.

2. I started this thread to explain the realities of the business. Why things are the way they are. If you reread my posts in the first page I think I cover it.

3. Stetson nor the other hat companies have ever released any of their fur recipes to the public. I'm sorry that that frustrates you, but if it is important to know the fur content I suggest you purchase 100% Genuine Beaver Hats. Those are the only hats we mark with the fur content. If you can find a hat that marks its fur content in %'s I'd be interested to see it.

 

[Stan]

Hi,

I'd be thrilled to have a store within a hundred miles where I could go and feel for myself the difference between the number of X's within a brand and type of hat as well as across brands and types!

As it is, there's a western wear store that had a few new Open Roads to check out, and the rest were all cowboy hats. Well, that's to be expected.

What I've learned from this thread is that the X system still works to denote quality levels between hats in the same type from the same manufacturer.

I've also learned that the stiffness of the Stetson Open Road, or any other Stetson model for that matter, is also dependent on what the particular shop, or chain thereof, might have requested. I can see where a western wear store would likely order a stiffer variant of Open Road than a dress hat shop would.

So, I have Hatco here to thank for that education. I, for one am glad he's back. :eusa_clap

But, then I'm always willing to accept things as they are and then try and figure out how to go from there rather than try to change things by myself....

Now, all we need is a dress hat shop around here, but I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for one, though.....

Stan