When does a gentleman fight back?

[John in Covina]

This thread has been extensively scrubbed, an exercise which no one has the time to do again. I'd rather leave this open but any more borderline political squabbling and we'll have to close it down.
Thanks.

***********
Some perceive others personal philosophies as political. Others perceive the taking of a supposed higher moral ground as philosophy when it is politically based.

You simply can't ask this type of question without opening a can of worms.

 

[Martinis at 8]

***********
Some perceive others personal philosophies as political. Others perceive the taking of a supposed higher moral ground as philosophy when it is politically based...

Indeed. Let's celebrate our diversity lol

 

[Lone_Ranger]

There are some things in the world we must fight for. Especially, if we hope to call ourselves "Gentlemen."

The trick is to choose your fights, and to fight only for those things that are truly worth the fight.

Some ancient texts to help you make that choice, my Faithful Friend.


The Lone Ranger's Creed

"I believe that to have a friend,
a man must be one.

That all men are created equal
and that everyone has within himself
the power to make this a better world.

That God put the firewood there
but that every man
must gather and light it himself.

In being prepared
physically, mentally, and morally
to fight when necessary
for that which is right.

That a man should make the most
of what equipment he has.

That 'This government,
of the people, by the people
and for the people'
shall live always.

That men should live by
the rule of what is best
for the greatest number.

That sooner or later...
somewhere...somehow...
we must settle with the world
and make payment for what we have taken.

That all things change but truth,
and that truth alone, lives on forever.

In my Creator, my country, my fellow man."

The Lone Ranger


And...

The Ten Rules of Chivalry

1. Follow the dictates of moral conscience.

2. Be willing to defend your values.

3. Have respect and pity for all weakness and steadfastness in defending them.

4. Love your country.

5. Refuse to retreat before the enemy.

6. Wage unceasing and merciless war against all that is evil.

7. Obey the orders of those appointed above you, as long as those orders do not conflict with what you know to be just.

8. Show loyalty to truth and to your pledged word.

9. Be generous and giving of ones self.

10. Be champion of the right and good at all times, and at all times oppose the forces of evil.

 

[carter]

This thread has been extensively scrubbed, an exercise which no one has the time to do again. I'd rather leave this open but any more borderline political squabbling and we'll have to close it down.

Thanks.

Thank you, scotrace.

Here are the Boy Scout Oath, Law, Motto, and Slogan. As a boy and a man, I have found these precepts to be of value fpr myself and for boys I have had the privilege to work with.

Scout Oath (or Promise)

On my honor I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country
and to obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong,
mentally awake, and morally straight.

Scout Law

TRUSTWORTHY
A Scout tells the truth. He keeps his promises. Honesty is part of his code of conduct. People can depend on him.
LOYAL
A Scout is true to his family, Scout leaders, friends, school, and nation.
HELPFUL
A Scout is concerned about other people. He does things willingly for others without pay or reward.
FRIENDLY
A Scout is a friend to all. He is a brother to other Scouts. He seeks to understand others. He respects those with ideas and customs other than his own.
COURTEOUS
A Scout is polite to everyone regardless of age or position. He knows good manners make it easier for people to get along together.
KIND
A Scout understands there is strength in being gentle. He treats others as he wants to be treated. He does not hurt or kill harmless things without reason.
OBEDIENT
A Scout follows the rules of his family, school, and troop. He obeys the laws of his community and country. If he thinks these rules and laws are unfair, he tries to have them changed in an orderly manner rather than disobey them.
CHEERFUL
A Scout looks for the bright side of things. He cheerfully does tasks that come his way. He tries to make others happy.
THRIFTY
A Scout works to pay his way and to help others. He saves for unforeseen needs. He protects and conserves natural resources. He carefully uses time and property.
BRAVE
A Scout can face danger even if he is afraid. He has the courage to stand for what he thinks is right even if others laugh at or threaten him.
CLEAN
A Scout keeps his body and mind fit and clean. He goes around with those who believe in living by these same ideals. He helps keep his home and community clean.
REVERENT
A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others.

Scout Motto

Be Prepared

Scout Slogan

Do a Good Turn Daily

 

[Lone_Ranger]

Good. I got mine in before "Last Call"

 

[Lefty]

Wow. This is a preachy thread. Everyone knows that the only answer to the original question is:

when his right to party is in imminent danger of death or grievous bodily harm.

Aww, mom you're just jealous...

 

[stephen1965]

Here's a picture of someone who fought back when his right to (political) party was in imminent danger of death or grievous bodily harm.

Jean Moulin (of the French resistance), stylish AND fighting for our right to party (against the then authorities).

 

[charlie farley]

Fighting back has never done me any good and as a result,I will carry the emotional scars with me for the rest of my life.Words are far worse than physical hurt by a long way.I was 51 two years ago,before I got my self esteem back.Sorry....I got carried away there.

 

[miss_elise]

miss-elise, I certainly agree with your last statement. However, I do not agree with your initial statement. The fact is that in three months a soldier only begins their training. It takes much longer, sometimes many years, to train a soldier and ongoing training never ends as long as one is in the military.

i'm sorry i didn't invent that statement. I believe it is an oft-repeated idea especially at the UN Peace Keeping forces. I could be mistaken, but I was under the impression that that is what they tell the peace keeping forces during training

 

[Diamondback]

Quite--it can, depending on circumstances, take a literal lifetime (frequently one at war) to train a peacemaker; it's much easier to keep a peace after someone else has already made it, wouldn't you agree?

"Speak softly and carry a big stick."--Theodore Roosevelt

 

[Lincsong]

I've found that when I was 130-150 pounds there were more incidences of someone attempting an altercation, than when I'm 185-195 pounds. Is it coincidence or have I just become a gentleman?

 

[Darhling]

Historically, of course, a gentleman fights back when struck smartly across the cheek with a fawn-colored glove.

Exactly! My first thought to the subject was 'when challenged to a duel'.

 

[carter]

Here's a picture of someone who fought back when his right to (political) party was in imminent danger of death or grievous bodily harm.

Jean Moulin (of the French resistance), stylish AND fighting for our right to party (against the then authorities).

Stephen1965, Thanks for posting this photo. Jean Moulin, one of the many heroes of the French Resistance during WWII, was tortured and died at the hands of the Gestapo in 1943. He is an important figure in the book Soldiers of the Night - The Story of the French Resistance by David Schoenbrun (1980 E.P. Dutton, NY)

"He is the defender of the defenseless and the champion of justice, or he is not a gentleman."

 

[carebear]

For verbally managing inter-personal relations with both friends and strangers I recommend the following book (website as well).

http://www.verbaljudo.com/

This course has been adopted by many law enforcement agencies in the US as it allows for de-escalation without submission. Works just as well dealing with an obnoxious co-worker or annoying relative as it does a hostile stranger.

-----------

I also recommend the following books (websites) for those concerned about general personal safety and self-defense.


As has been stated, the key to personal safety is being aware of your surroundings and how you present yourself to others and then responding correctly to circumstances as they arise.

This book is the gold standard in self-defense circles for awareness as it discusses the psychological and sociological factors that interact and sometimes interfere with our innate human ability to recognize potential threats.

https://www.gavindebecker.com/books-gof.cfm


The following website is chock full of great information on how violent persons think and act and how to deal with them. It's like wikipedia in that you can track various topics through many layers of detail.

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/five_stages.html

If you read DeBecker's book you will see he uses much of the same terminology in terms of how criminals select and interact with their victims.


Finally, I think the following phrase has a great deal of wisdom:

"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." -- Col. Jeff Cooper

I believe that "unarmed" is a flexible term in context and can be defined by each individual according to their personal beliefs and the society in which they live.

You can be "armed" with information on recognition and avoidance of evil (persons and behaviors), of methods to confront it non-violently if that is your personal limit, by having knowledge of techniques of defensive violence of various kinds and levels and the training and means to exercise that knowledge, or all of the above.

 

[Woland]

I've found that when I was 130-150 pounds there were more incidences of someone attempting an altercation, than when I'm 185-195 pounds. Is it coincidence or have I just become a gentleman?

Well; size really matters...

 

[Bourbon Guy]

Hey! Where did Lear go? I was enjoying his stories.

I particularly liked:

"Customer: I want to punch you in the face.

Me: (Wondering if I've heard correctly). Pardon

Customer: I want to hurt you

Me: Look, it's a really nice day and the sun is shining. You've just made me feel really sad. I hope that you can also have a lovely day and enjoy the sunshine. (yes, I really did say that).

Customer: (Looks at me hard). I'm sorry. (Pays for his coffee and leaves)."

Please, may we have some more?

 

[Dr Doran]

Fascinating thread. My 2 cents.

1.) Lear, either you are stretching the truth, or you come off very very annoying and punchable to many, many people. It's one or the other. If you lived in a horrible neighborhood then there would be some chance that it was not one of those two options, but apparently something you do annoys people real bad in various neighborhoods, not just the one full of chavs, and from various social backgrounds, not just chavs. But something about you annoys the chavs in particular, and that's worth finding out. Perhaps they think you are too prissy? Sometimes this is a danger that we Loungers incur. So you have your work cut out for you: figure out what it is about you that annoys people. It is a fine exercise and every person and every group should do it. The following points may be useful to you as well.

2.) Never underestimate the power of JUST NOT SAYING ANYTHING. It works wonders in all sorts of conflicts, physical and not, against all sorts of people from every walk of life. In doubt? Don't say anything. Don't say something smart alecky. Don't say something bullying. And don't say something submissive. Just don't say anything. Just look at the person, or don't, and keep walking. Silence is not read by most people to mean that you are backing down. It makes you simply seem as though you are busy and indifferent.

3.) When in an escalating situation, look at the person as though he is meat. Behind a glass butcher counter. You are meat. Don't say a thing, just look at them as though they are meat. Not delicious meat, not disgusting meat, but just pink meat sitting on a green paper in a metal tray, refrigerated. This works extremely well against the obnoxious bums asking for change where I live. They get scared and go away.
Looking at someone like they are meat does not mean that you necessarily are planning on chopping them up. It only means that you see them not as a vibrant person, living and talking, but as a dead slab on a flat surface. They will get the impression and they will go away. (Just do not ever look at a woman or a non-evil male this way -- it is very horrible. It is only to be used against really bad people.)

4.) You seem to not have ever been in a fight. This is unfortunate because it has built up an extra dread within you. Getting the ____ beaten out of you is actually a character-building experience. It makes you lose the fear of fighting and any freaked-out feeling about the prospect of fighting. Likewise, having knocked the _____ out of a deserving person is also a character-building experience. It makes you know that you are capable of it.

5.) Remember that even if someone else starts the fight, you can get in trouble (a few other people have remarked on this) so my answer is to have a somewhat fatalistic and accepting attitude toward this prospect (that is, the prospect of getting in trouble). Best avoided, and you should never be a bully to anyone ever, but sometimes bad things seem, unfortunately, to happen. Remember that what you think of as wit apparently is seen as bullying by others: don't bully them that way, either. If you do fight, don't go crazy and kill the person. Knocking them down once is usually sufficient and then you can go away. They may still call the cops, even if they were the aggressor; this is unfortunate, but it's not the end of the world.

Those are my only pearls of wisdom. In summary:
a.) figure out what you are doing that annoys people.
b.) Keep your mouth shut and don't try to be witty in bad situations.
c.) Master the meatstare.
d.) And maybe getting into a fight won't be the worst thing in the world -- time to get over the anticipation you seem to have built up around it.

And good luck with this problem in your life. I think you are smart enough to figure out a way out of it.

 

[Woland]

An officer, or a Gentleman?

This is rather strange.
It seems like most (male) posters agrees upon what they seem to consider "honourable conduct":
Never throwing the first punch...
Back off if possible etc...

In a way I see this thread as somewhat related to the rather learned thread debating the accurence of elitism amongst loungers.
We have seen rather disgusting serial-displays of senseless snobbery, dissing of what is deemed unfitting subcultures, grave generalisations "en comp" and much whining, weeping & wailing when it comes to falling standards and morals...
I am really kind of spooked by this proud adaption of some of the most dubious practices of the last century.

People have quoted everything from The Lone Ranger, via a handbook in etiquette (written by a female...), deep into the Boy Scout Credo (Sic!).
If I might be so bold as to use the term "Consider it deleted and offensive. -HJ"?
(Pardon my French and delete if deemed offensive.)

IMHO; a Gentlemans first and foremost duty is to himself. family and friends.
Some has mentioned "country" as a part of this equation.
(I do not agree, but that is beside the point.)

Thought I do a quote of my own...

The Military Poet states:

I was trained by experts.
Guys who traced their own training back to World War Two, Korea, Vietnam.
People who had survived things I had only read about in books.
They taught me methods, details, skills.
Most of all they taught me attitude.
They taught me that inhibitions would kill me.
Hit early, hit hard.
Kill with the first blow.
Get your retaliation in first.
Cheat.
The Gentlemen who behaved decently were not there to train anybody.
They were already dead...

Now; I am by no means praising violence, or condoning murder (comitted by civilians or personell in uniform).
I have been at the receiving end of the stick to many times, and I see bombs and grenades as unmanly weaponry.

The one common denominator amongst loungers seems to be an attraction towards the aesthetics of the days of yore.
Some individuals consider that the ethos, morale and etiquette of those days are something to be applied as standards in their life..
In for a penny, in for a pound. All well and good...

I do enjoy Capt. Hastings sense of morale and proper conduct, but finds it more than plausible that he, through his military career, has wasted more than one WOG and thought nothing of it...
Might not one do good to have a tad less romanticized understanding of the morale of the golden era?

Myself; I am a real and proper gutter-boy (Chav?).
I choose to reflect this fact in my public conduct as well as in my blend of culture, fashion and style.

Snobbery disgusts me...
Intensly...

Rant over!

 

[stephen1965]

Not aimed at anyone in particular but I'm slightly surprised at the amount of martial types on this thread. Not that there's anything wrong with that but there haven't been that many replies from the non violent (a few but they're outnumbered).
What I mean is that most have said something like 'try to not get into it but, well, then use violence'.
Some have advocated shooting and/or preemptive attacks.
Is it me or is society/the world just becoming ever more martial?
I'm sure there's someone on the lounge who includes a line with their post which is 'If you go looking for a fight you can be sure of finding one' or something to that effect. Seems true to me. Most casual violence can be avoided using the strategies posted recently on this thread. To indulge in thinking about how one is going to sort out the thugs/chavs/bullies etc etc could just be a distraction from bigger problems which might be addressed. It could be allowing oneself to be manipulated...

 

[Dr Doran]

Myself; I am a real and proper gutter-boy (Chav?).
I choose to reflect this fact in my public conduct as well as in my blend of culture, fashion and style.

Snobbery disgusts me...
Intensly...

Rant over!

I don't understand. I have never seen an intelligent person call himself a chav proudly.

Is that like calling yourself a redneck proudly? I actually have, indeed, seen some intelligent people do that, and they related it to the Scots Irish coming to America and living in the mountains, and it made sense to me.

Is it like calling yourself a skinhead proudly? I have seen that too.

Or is it like calling yourself ghetto trash proudly? I have never seen anyone I admired do that.

As for your disgust of snobbery, I'm a hell of a lot more disgusted by slob-snobbery, the hatred of The Culture Formerly Known As High Culture.