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When does a gentleman fight back?

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reetpleat

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[QUOTE="Skeet" McD]As I've had occasion to mention elsewhere, my first "real" job--for 3 summers during college and then about 2 years after--was at Sing-Sing prison, the "cottage industry" of my home town. For the bulk of that time, I was inside the walls, seeing the entire population (except men in solitary) go by regularly. I had a crew of 10 inmates, all of them murderers, under me.

Take home message: they were all very nice people...had no trouble with any of them save 2 REAL psychopaths (father and son)...but they all would as soon kill you as look at you if you crossed a line--by their rulebook.

It is, in my opinion, a common delusion (brought about by a generally well-ordered world) that "everybody is just like me, and if they're not...we can talk about it and sort it out; they must just not understand." In other words: THEY must be wrong.

Well, on the global stage or in Sing-Sing--or standing at the door of your bedroom with malice aforethought--the fact is: there are plenty of people out there who are playing by very different rules and have chosen--for whatever reasons--to do so. To ignore this fact is both intensely egocentric and can also be quite dangerous, for countries; cultures; and individuals.

A similar eye-opener for me was (during a decade working in a clinical research laboratory dedicated to a genetic disease that cuts across ALL boundaries of class, race, economic level, nationality and (yes) whether you were inside or outside of a prison!) just how homogenous and insulated most of our lives are, even if we are not actively trying to keep it that way--and may well think we go out of our way to know the world more fully. Observing a pretty much random sample of humanity is both thought-provoking and, frankly, somewhat scary.

These are personal observations; every person has to decide what to do about the facts they report. But, believe me--they are facts.

"Skeet"[/QUOTE]

While I don't dispute your ideas, I don't see them as facts. they are observations and conclusions. That said, you seem like an intelligent guy who has experienced many things, so your observations and conclusions should hold some weight with people.

One issue I might take is that, while you seem to imply that people are naive about what others are capable, I would suggest that the media has put people in a constant state of fear, when the vast majority of people are quite normal and safe. i think people are too afraid of people, while you seem to feel they are not afraid enough. i guess we can both have our opinions.
 

Viola

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reetpleat said:
While I don't necesarily think that violence should never be used, there are many people who believe (not self righteously, they just believe it) that is the case. Jesus was one of them. although it can perhaps be argued that his bit in the temple demonstrates that he did not believe that.

Excuse me very much if this is incorrect, as I am not a Christian nor was I raised within the culture, but didn't he tell his disciples to carry swords?
 

reetpleat

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stephen1965 said:
Not aimed at anyone in particular but I'm slightly surprised at the amount of martial types on this thread. Not that there's anything wrong with that but there haven't been that many replies from the non violent (a few but they're outnumbered).
What I mean is that most have said something like 'try to not get into it but, well, then use violence'.
Some have advocated shooting and/or preemptive attacks.
Is it me or is society/the world just becoming ever more martial?
I'm sure there's someone on the lounge who includes a line with their post which is 'If you go looking for a fight you can be sure of finding one' or something to that effect. Seems true to me. Most casual violence can be avoided using the strategies posted recently on this thread. To indulge in thinking about how one is going to sort out the thugs/chavs/bullies etc etc could just be a distraction from bigger problems which might be addressed. It could be allowing oneself to be manipulated...

There are likely, many who have avoided posting in this thread.
 

LizzieMaine

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reetpleat said:
I think the case can be made for either way of dealing with an intruder. I dare say, though, that the smartest thing, if possible, is to flee the house.

That's what the police told my friend -- but unfortunately her unwanted guest was blocking the only functional door to her house. And as she explained to me later, she was just so bloody *mad* that this schmuck had broken into her house, in broad daylight, with her car in the driveway, that she couldn't think of anything more rational than just blind furious rage. Sometimes that alone can be a very valuable weapon: NO, I AM NOT GOING ALONG WITH THIS LIKE A SHEEP. YOU DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO DO THIS.

I fear that's how I also would react. I think highly of Gahndi, but he wasn't a a single woman living alone in a questionable neighborhood.
 

reetpleat

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Viola said:
Excuse me very much if this is incorrect, as I am not a Christian nor was I raised within the culture, but didn't he tell his disciples to carry swords?

While I was raised catholic, I am no bible scholar. Doesn't sound familiar. if so, it may have been metaphorical.

there is definitely something in there about turning the other cheek.

Interesting line in the movie, Gandhi, in which a pries suggests that that was metaphorical, and gandhi responds that he is not so sure about that, and explains his views on the idea.
 

"Skeet" McD

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reetpleat said:
While I don't dispute your ideas, I don't see them as facts. they are observations and conclusions. That said, you seem like an intelligent guy who has experienced many things, so your observations and conclusions should hold some weight with people.

One issue I might take is that, while you seem to imply that people are naive about what others are capable, I would suggest that the media has put people in a constant state of fear, when the vast majority of people are quite normal and safe. i think people are too afraid of people, while you seem to feel they are not afraid enough. i guess we can both have our opinions.

Dear RP, thanks for the kind words; much appreciated. Re: facts/observations, the distinction you make is of course valid...but to follow it down the whole way gets us....to a giant philosophical inquiry into the nature of reality and man's ability to.....oh, you get the idea. :eek: People far more intelligent than I, and possibly you, have been discussing THAT one for millenia...and I don't think we're liable to advance the matter much by getting into it here! ;) So: point taken. But what I meant was: "I saw this with my own eyes; this is not theory. Make of it what you will."

Re: the drumbeat of fear....couldn't agree with you more. Not to open a COMPLETELY pointless can of vipers, but the one thing I agreed with in Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine was his premise that there are forces out there VERY VERY interested in manipulating populations through campaigns intended to achieve political results by instilling fear. The place where he and I--and very possibly you and I--differ is...as a gun owner, I feel I and my compatriots have ample reason to know this...because we are the targets of just such a campaign.

I don't think we should be more fearful of our fellow man as a modus vivendi; I do think that a large portion of the population would do better to consider that there are individuals out there who should be feared, and--when confronted with some evidence to that effect--not dismiss it out of hand; and that it might be a good idea, as some have already said, to have a clear idea of a variety of methods to meet a variety of cases.

We certainly can, and should, both hold our opinions. I'm pleased and honored to be able to share mine with you and the others here in a gentlemanly fashion.

With very best regards,
"Skeet"
 
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reetpleat said:
While I don't necesarily think that violence should never be used, there are many people who believe (not self righteously, they just believe it) that is the case. Jesus was one of them. although it can perhaps be argued that his bit in the temple demonstrates that he did not believe that. One of the men I respect the most, Gandhi, was a firm believer in non violence under any circumstances. if I am not mistaken, martin Luther King did as well. You may not agree, but the belief of non violence is a perfectly valid, well thought out point of view.

...then...with that well thought out belief,it seems,one must also accept the possible dire consequences concerning not only their own welfare but also those that are dear to them. Defenseless under any circumstance.
 

reetpleat

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LizzieMaine said:
That's what the police told my friend -- but unfortunately her unwanted guest was blocking the only functional door to her house. And as she explained to me later, she was just so bloody *mad* that this schmuck had broken into her house, in broad daylight, with her car in the driveway, that she couldn't think of anything more rational than just blind furious rage. Sometimes that alone can be a very valuable weapon: NO, I AM NOT GOING ALONG WITH THIS LIKE A SHEEP. YOU DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO DO THIS.

I fear that's how I also would react. I think highly of Gahndi, but he wasn't a a single woman living alone in a questionable neighborhood.

No, but Gandhi was an indian living in a British colony in which the British Army was free to beat or kill an indian indiscriminantly, and where the very colonization of the country could easily be considered a great violence against the people of India, many of whom died of overwork, starvation and illness. Just as vulnerable I would say.

In the movie world, the intruder would be so shamed and embarrassed that he would return the next day, apologize, and help her fix her house and get her groceries, becoming an upstanding member of the community.
 

Viola

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reetpleat said:
While I was raised catholic, I am no bible scholar. Doesn't sound familiar. if so, it may have been metaphorical.

It's very possible I'm thinking of something else, or a different Biblical figure, who said something about if you have no sword, sell your cloak and buy one? I don't know, honestly.
 

"Skeet" McD

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Viola said:
Excuse me very much if this is incorrect, as I am not a Christian nor was I raised within the culture, but didn't he tell his disciples to carry swords?

No, you seem to be better posted on the sayings of Jesus than many Christians: good for you! The passage you're remembering is Luke 22:36:

Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

This is one of the so-called "hard sayings" of Jesus...and has been bedevilling commentators to explain what was meant for 2 millenia.

"Skeet"
 

Carlisle Blues

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Viola said:
It's very possible I'm thinking of something else, or a different Biblical figure, who said something about if you have no sword, sell your cloak and buy one? I don't know, honestly.

I say that stuff .... after about a gallon of rotgut. :eusa_doh: :eusa_doh: lol
 

reetpleat

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HoosierDaddy said:
...then...with that well thought out belief,it seems,one must also accept the possible dire consequences concerning not only their own welfare but also those that are dear to them. Defenseless under any circumstance.

Well, yes, all three of them accepted those consequences and in their own wisdom, felt it was appropriate. it does seem hard to understand, but they did come to that conclusion.
 

LizzieMaine

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Viola said:
It's very possible I'm thinking of something else, or a different Biblical figure, who said something about if you have no sword, sell your cloak and buy one? I don't know, honestly.

Luke 22:36 -- "Let him who has no sword sell his cloak and buy one." There are a lot of interpretations of this, but the most obvious one is that it's Jesus instructing his apostles on what to do during when Jerusalem is overrun by the Romans.

(Six years of Sunday School here, and I distinctly remember asking the teacher what that verse meant.)
 

Bourbon Guy

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Viola said:
Excuse me very much if this is incorrect, as I am not a Christian nor was I raised within the culture, but didn't he tell his disciples to carry swords?

No. When He was arrested He told (I think) Peter to put away his sword and not defend Him. There is another passage where He speaks in metaphors about a sword, but He is talking about throwing out the old system entirely and starting new and it is not intended to be taken literally. He used parables and metaphors and analogies all the time to make a point.

I tend to be overly blunt and offend people all the time (sorry, Martini's at 8). Please do not take me that way.

One of the greatest things Christians struggle with is the "turn the other cheek" pronouncement. Does it mean to allow a terrorist to cut off your head, or your wife's, without protest, or does it mean don't flip off the guy who just cut you off in traffic? I don't know. Neither does anyone else. But if you struggle with it, and ponder it, and put in the time to read the Gospels (there are only 4. If you can master them....) and try to understand what the heck it means, you will discover something else.
 

Viola

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Thanks, Skeet and Lizzie: It was bugging the heck out of me to think I made up something like that.
 

reetpleat

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[QUOTE="Skeet" McD]No, you seem to be better posted on the sayings of Jesus than many Christians: good for you! The passage you're remembering is Luke 22:36:

Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

This is one of the so-called "hard sayings" of Jesus...and has been bedevilling commentators to explain what was meant for 2 millenia.

"Skeet"[/QUOTE]

Skeet is correct. I got on line to see if I could find it. here is one explanation.

http://www.ecapc.org/articles/RensbeD_HS4_BuyASword.asp

I am sure there are others who would posit that this is proof jesus was not a pacifist.
 

Viola

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Bourbon Guy said:
No. When He was arrested He told (I think) Peter to put away his sword and not defend Him. There is another passage where He speaks in metaphors about a sword, but He is talking about throwing out the old system entirely and starting new and it is not intended to be taken literally. He used parables and metaphors and analogies all the time to make a point.

I wasn't trying to give offense: as I said I am not educated on Christianity. If anybody wants to PM me for conversation that's cool. I hope you were not bothered by what I wrote.
 

LizzieMaine

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reetpleat said:
No, but Gandhi was an indian living in a British colony in which the British Army was free to beat or kill an indian indiscriminantly, and where the very colonization of the country could easily be considered a great violence against the people of India, many of whom died of overwork, starvation and illness. Just as vulnerable I would say..

All good points, but no, not just as vulnerable. There are things that a single woman living alone in a rough neighborhood has to worry about that Gandhi --or any other man -- did not and does not. I don't think I have to explain what those things are, right?

reetpleat said:
In the movie world, the intruder would be so shamed and embarrassed that he would return the next day, apologize, and help her fix her house and get her groceries, becoming an upstanding member of the community.

It'd be nice, but it hasn't happened yet.
 

Foofoogal

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During our married life I have had a gun stuck in my face by a gang leader. I chatted my way out of it. I also gave him a mama talk about where he would be in 5 years. He was a very intelligent young man (why he was the leader) and I believe he may of listened as he soon turned his life around. (maybe right timing? I did pray for him alot. ) Not sure what ever happened to him though. My honey has been robbed 3 times. Once by 3 guys on a crime spree. One thing to factor in is sometimes alot people are out of their mind and on drugs or alcohol or whatever.
Somewhere there is a book about healthy fear and not to dismiss it but I can't remember the name. [huh]
I in no way see Jesus as a pacifist. Hilarious when people even say that to me. He is the ultimate authority.
-------------------------------

24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
-----------------------------
He was, is and always be God. You don't think He could of stopped the wars? Silly thinking.
 

Bourbon Guy

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Viola said:
I wasn't trying to give offense: as I said I am not educated on Christianity. If anybody wants to PM me for conversation that's cool. I hope you were not bothered by what I wrote.

You did not bother me in the least. Do not think twice about it. It was a straight question, to which I tried to give a straight answer to the extent of my understanding. Since I tend to be overly direct, I was trying not to offend you with my response. We're cool. :)
 
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