What Happens to Old Towns?

[Foofoogal]

I am curious to hear some comments or examples of this.
As of course progress is made sooner or later it seems young folks want to build new homes. This is generally done out of the town proper.
Not sure of how to word this but if a town is old and this happens does the town eventually become rural?
I guess my ? is just curiosity but is there ever a way to successfully preserve the older part of town and still have the newer part of town.
I would think it is a very delicate balance between ones who want change and those who hold on like bulldogs to no change.
With the economy also how I wonder will this be affected. Will what is left of older towns just disappear?

I am determined to find a town with a real courthouse that I can live safely in and may just be whistling dixie.
I detest cookie cutter homes. As I am now looking after 15 years of living in one place this is foremost in my priorities at the moment.

 

[Atterbury Dodd]

The town near where I live is full (or was) of decaying old houses/buildings. They left them to decay and then condememed them. And the're trying to encourage tourism to the town? People come to the see the old-timey town and listen to music played on the court-house sqaure. Dick Powell the famous actor and singer of the 30's was also born in this town. I hope someone does something with the house he was born in before it's to late:rage:

 

[LizzieMaine]

Up here, for a long time the young arrivistes tended to gravitate to the rural areas, buying up all the old abandoned dairy and poultry farms and gentrifying them, but now that those places are becoming to expensive to heat they're moving back into town -- the current trend is to buy up duplexes and small apartment buildings and turn them into artist/loft type spaces which they can both live in and rent out. Of course, this forces the working-class people who used to live in those buildings to go away -- and now *they're* the ones that more and more are having to move out to the sticks.

Our old commercial downtown died in the '90s when the fishing industry caved in and Wal Mart came to town, but it's since been reborn as a tourist haven with twee little shops and art galleries. I suspect that's been the route a lot of small towns have been stuck with: change, alas, or die. The real vintage-era working downtown, with stores that sell things to non-tourists, is very hard to find nowadays.

 

[DBLIII]

I am determined to find a town with a real courthouse that I can live safely in and may just be whistling dixie.
I detest cookie cutter homes. As I am now looking after 15 years of living in one place this is foremost in my priorities at the moment.

Might take a look at Fayette, Missouri. Still a big red brick courthouse in the town square that's actually used as the courthouse. Very low crime, people still do live in the town but 5 minutes out, it's countryside.

 

[Foofoogal]

I can understand about new but it would seem that this could easily be recreated.
In Germany almost every newer town I went to had a main square if you may. The streets were even closed off and this is where the towns people congregated with baby strollers and all.
I guess in the 1960s when the developments came is where the concept took a beating.
Isn't this something that is teached in city planning classes or something?

 

[Paisley]

I think the New Urbanism is supposed to integrate shopping, work, mass transit and housing. Not that it always works as intended; I've heard that in some New Urbanism neighborhoods, you have to drive somewhere else to buy a loaf of bread or a box of nails.

 

[Jay]

I used to live in Medford, New Jersey. A town of wealthy middle aged people.They had a Main Street with large houses, stores, and the like, but now, with the exception of a restaurant, a cafe, and carpet store, the rest of the buildings are antique stores (expensive), craft stores (more expensive), and art galleries (I don't even know).

It's a shame that the town has become like one of those false-front wild west villages- all these nice places, but there's nothing to actually do there.

On the other hand, I've seen small towns fully functioning, with buildings from 1918 holding music stores, bars, restaurants, post offices and two barber shops. And that was a college town. I guess it's up to the population to decide what's to do in town...

I guess the

 

[LizzieMaine]

I think the New Urbanism is supposed to integrate shopping, work, mass transit and housing. Not that it always works as intended; I've heard that in some New Urbanism neighborhoods, you have to drive somewhere else to buy a loaf of bread or a box of nails.

That's my fear -- that the "New Urbanism" downtowns will be more of a Disneyfied theme-park idea of a downtown instead of an actual, practical, vintage-style working downtown. As long as you've got big-box sprawl on the outskirts, that's where people are going to go, regardless of what's available downtown, because they've had thirty years of training to think that the plazas and the malls are the only way to go. New community planning and new/old architectural approaches are all well and good, but they've got to be supported by new habits.

It's tough right now -- I'm as passionate a believer in traditional village life as I ever was, and I absolutely hate that I have to get in the car and drive across town to buy a spool of thread or a pair of socks. But all the lobster-trap key chains and Andrew Wyeth postcards I could ever want are right within walking distance downtown.

 

[Fletch]

Chain retail is so integrated into the economy by now that having Main Street and/or local merchants is really a privilege - not a luxury, but not quite a right, either. We have to pay a certain premium to keep it, so we can have shopping close by and neighborhoods that remain alive. I, for one, am willing to do so as long as I'm able.

However, it is probably too late for the basics like hardware and the five & dime, unless you live in a town of 2,000-10,000 that's too small for strip retail and too far from a mall. We have some left in Iowa but they're the lucky towns, county seats or otherwise exempted from the Dying Small Town rule.

What happens to old towns? If they can't make it one way or another, they become grim little knots of poverty. The only people left are too poor or too old to move. Storefronts go from retail to resale to charity to empty. Houses get dingier and dirtier but are never fixed up, or even torn down. Rarely do these towns become ghost towns, but that is only because the people still there are stuck there. Most poverty in this country is rural, and we still are not ready to address it.

 

[dhermann1]

Would you settle for a medium sized city with good public transportation? While the charming small towns of the past may be gone, maybe you can find a city of 50,000 to 200,000 that still has a real thriving downtown and a decent bus system, or even (highly improbable!) a trolley system. The small towns you speak of had integrated road rail and trolley systems. They weren't isolated entities. Also, the jobs have to be there, as well. The many towns that relied on one or two small manufacturers with plants on the edge of town are also long gone.
I wonder how some of the smaller cities in New England would be on this score. I know most of upstate New York's medium sized cities have decayed badly (Syracuse, Rochester, etc.). How are cities like Chicopee and Pittsfield and Worcester Mass doing these days? How livable are they? I know Hartford and New Haven are in sad shape.
Likewise, how about the mid south?

 

[KY Gentleman]

My wife and I just attended a concert given in a high school gym in a neighboring small town. The town had a bunch of locally owned restaurants, a lot of antique type stores but no general merchant that I could see.
It was as LizzieMaine said, if you lived there it would be for the atmosphere not the convenience. To shop for necessities the locals probably drove 10 miles or so to get to a grocery or department store.
I guess the small towns that do survive serve more as living museums for us to see "what used to be".

 

[LEUII]

Since you are in Arkansas you might want to look at my hometown, Searcy. It is the county seat of White county. It is growing, but still has a great deal of small town to it. They are trying to keep it that way. It has a great courthouse, too.

 

[carouselvic]

Here in Kansas, nothing is any more of a death sentence to a small town, than losing it's school. Once the school goes it's all down hill from there.

 

[Miss_Bella_Hell]

My hometown, Scituate MA, might fit the bill. http://www.town.scituate.ma.us/ There are some housing developments, but they're not in the town center (and they're all McMansions). Recently a really seedy bar downtown (Front Street) was torn down and 500k+ condos were put up in the town center (overlooking the water), but they aren't too much of an eyesore, thank goodness. It's a town of about 20,000, there is a train that goes to Boston in under an hour, and Front Street has ice cream shops, a CVS, a grocery store, and a hardware store. There are touristy stores too, of course. It's a quaint New England fishing town, can't be avoided. [huh]

It isn't big enough for its own courthouse however. That's about a 20 minute drive to Hingham. In fact, maybe you should check out Hingham!

 

[Foofoogal]

Bella

500k+ condos were put up in the town center

Since you brought it up this seems to be the death of any hope of revitalization. I am not trying to be a snob and understand the need for housing but without zoning it sets up a transient feature into the loop. Now pricey condos are still condos or apartments are still apartments to alot of people.
The school note is interesting. I also think medical and good doctors play a big role in the decay of a place.
I was raised in a small town with a courthouse square. I guess with the economy I just want to go back to a simpler time.

 

[ShoreRoadLady]

So many older downtown areas seem to end up overdeveloped - built up and out to their maximum, and the result is a run-down, crowded neighborhood that often as not isn't very safe. The courthouse may look nice and shiny, and there might be a few blocks that are kept up, but the rest of the houses are shabby.

Chain retail is so integrated into the economy by now that having Main Street and/or local merchants is really a privilege - not a luxury, but not quite a right, either. We have to pay a certain premium to keep it, so we can have shopping close by and neighborhoods that remain alive. I, for one, am willing to do so as long as I'm able.

True. And many downtown/historic areas are very opposed to including chain stores in the area, preferring to preserve the ambiance.

How about something middling, without the atmosphere but with the functionality you want? A city may have a strip mall, but you can walk to it. And even in the Golden Era, people had to drive around or take a streetcar, so it won't be totally anachronistic.

BTW...why does it have to have a courthouse?

 

[Foofoogal]

Ok, what brought me to this pondering today is sort of like the thread what do you miss most that is vintage.
I was speaking to a man in his 80s describing his home. All about the workmanship and quality of the home. Tongue and groove, special brick, special marble etc.
So I am just wondering why we have evolved into expecting such substandard stuff? Slap it together and go. It is ok as I know what to look for but will the younger people just come to expect cheaper across the board everything.
I so wanted this older gentleman to understand I understood. I understood how it was ingrained in him to find a quality product to raise his family in and take pride in taking care of it and all. He did not along with his wife just waste all the effort for nothing and he will get rewarded for preserving quality.
I like to think that some on the FL understand what I am trying to convey.

 

[dhermann1]

Schools

This schools issue is a thorny one. I've been keeping up on the discussion in Chautauqua County, in western New York State, where I grew up. A prominent local leader has suggested, since the county's population has declined from over 150,000 40 years ago, to barely 130,000 now, that there should be a single county government and a single school district for the whole county. Schools all over the county are studying consolidation plans.
The loss of a school may be the death knell for a small community, but the excessive costs of supporting too many school plants, both in terms of redundant facilities, and in the loss of educational opportunities for the kids, can be a worse economic burden for the entire region. The excessive tax levels which this causes can be a major contributor to the general economic decline. Sometimes tough decisions have to be made.
But having grown up in that kind of environmenrt, believe me, Foofoo, I know exactly what you're talking about.
Just as an aside, this is what I love about the Fedora Lounge. On one page we have a wonderfully silly thread going about our esteemed colleague Douglas's many hats and one facial expression, and here we have a good discussion of something really substantive.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Ok, what brought me to this pondering today is sort of like the thread what do you miss most that is vintage.
I was speaking to a man in his 80s describing his home. All about the workmanship and quality of the home. Tongue and groove, special brick, special marble etc.
So I am just wondering why we have evolved into expecting such substandard stuff? Slap it together and go. It is ok as I know what to look for but will the younger people just come to expect cheaper across the board everything.
I so wanted this older gentleman to understand I understood. I understood how it was ingrained in him to find a quality product to raise his family in and take pride in taking care of it and all. He did not along with his wife just waste all the effort for nothing and he will get rewarded for preserving quality.
I like to think that some on the FL understand what I am trying to convey.

I think the most honest response you'll most often hear today is that "it's too expensive to do the kind of quality work they did a hundred years ago." That's what really justifies most of the beaverboard-and-formed-concrete-and-plastic-siding stuff you'll see nowadays. They'll give you a lot of bushwa about how modern workmanship is more sophisticated and modern materials are more durable, but I doubt you'll see too many of today's new public buildings still standing a hundred years hence.

We have a classic late-19th-century courthouse which is still rock solid. But about ten years ago they tore down the attatched county jail building -- which they had to take down with a wrecking ball because the backhoes just bounced off -- and replaced it with a painfully ugly glass-and-steel District Court building that's already leaky and run-down looking. Yay for modern workmanship.

 

[Foofoogal]

Yay for modern workmanship

Not only that Lizzie but where does anyone go during a tornado or hurricane in fact. As a child I rode out at least 3 hurricanes in an church built to last. I guess the fast buck is the key.
They add hardeners to the concrete don't you know. You can land a plane on it the same day. (yeah right)