What Happens to Old Towns?

[Bourbon Guy]

I'm going to be a bit contrary on this one. I am not so sure that what happened to small town retail, with the introduction of Walmart, is terribly different from what happened to all the little locally owned restaurants when chain restaurants showed up.

More often than not, the chain-restaurant food was better quality, consistently cooked, the restrooms were cleaner, and the wait staff were more service oriented because they were actually trained to serve, in a training regimen that had been developed to insure a quality dining experience. The surly waitress, the hung-over cook dropping cigarette ashes into the food, the food that looked and tasted differently each time you ordered it, and the general attitude that they were doing you a favor by serving you .... how we all long for the good old days.

Small towns that have something to offer their residents survive and thrive. Those that do not, don't. If there is only one plant in town providing all the jobs, and the town dies when it closes, then it didn't really have anything else to offer, did it? They could have attempted to deversify their employment base. And by the way, when Walmart opens a new store, the locals are not frog-marched to the door and forced to buy. They go there because Walmart is offering something better, either in selection or service. The local merchants who lose business are generally open when it is convenient for them, not their customers, and all the unsold stuff on their shelves is clearly not anything they want to buy.

 

[Foofoogal]

Hey, I live in Arkansas as a newbie. You think I am going to bash Wal-Mart? lol

This is why I put this thread. to get different opinions. You are correct in this clarification that not all smaller is always better. Zoning goes a long way also. Think ahead folks. You never know.

http://finance.yahoo.com/real-estate/article/106413/America's-25-Strongest-Housing-Markets
Sometimes things also happen unforeseen I guess.

I don't want to get too far off track.

 

[reetpleat]

That's my fear -- that the "New Urbanism" downtowns will be more of a Disneyfied theme-park idea of a downtown instead of an actual, practical, vintage-style working downtown. As long as you've got big-box sprawl on the outskirts, that's where people are going to go, regardless of what's available downtown, because they've had thirty years of training to think that the plazas and the malls are the only way to go. New community planning and new/old architectural approaches are all well and good, but they've got to be supported by new habits.

It's tough right now -- I'm as passionate a believer in traditional village life as I ever was, and I absolutely hate that I have to get in the car and drive across town to buy a spool of thread or a pair of socks. But all the lobster-trap key chains and Andrew Wyeth postcards I could ever want are right within walking distance downtown.

It is a shame, nd pretty complicated. Much as I like the idea of trying to recreate urbanism, it seems doomed to fail. There are some attempts to make housing around a bit of a center, which often is nothing more than a strip mall, but at leat it should have grocery, restaurants, etc so people can walk to get a lot of what they need.

But how cn they possibly recreate an environment like that when people work all over the place. With specialization, I can';t imagine a community that cna house and employ the same people, making cars unnecessery. Someday, if we have an oil meltdown, and no one can drive, we may see a move to that, but it would mean a practically failed economy except on a local level.

 

[Fletch]

BTW...why does it have to have a courthouse?

That assures at least some steady employment thru county government, and often a bit of history if the old courthouse is still usable. If so, old houses or storefronts frequently become law offices, which lend a little upscale air.

About those chain restaurants. Many of those started to suck, too, but in a different way. It all depends how tight a ship the franchisee insists on.

 

[reetpleat]

Chain retail is so integrated into the economy by now that having Main Street and/or local merchants is really a privilege - not a luxury, but not quite a right, either. We have to pay a certain premium to keep it, so we can have shopping close by and neighborhoods that remain alive. I, for one, am willing to do so as long as I'm able.

However, it is probably too late for the basics like hardware and the five & dime, unless you live in a town of 2,000-10,000 that's too small for strip retail and too far from a mall. We have some left in Iowa but they're the lucky towns, county seats or otherwise exempted from the Dying Small Town rule.

What happens to old towns? If they can't make it one way or another, they become grim little knots of poverty. The only people left are too poor or too old to move. Storefronts go from retail to resale to charity to empty. Houses get dingier and dirtier but are never fixed up, or even torn down. Rarely do these towns become ghost towns, but that is only because the people still there are stuck there. Most poverty in this country is rural, and we still are not ready to address it.

Without discussing the politics of it, I will agree, but not that some small town across America are being revitalized due to incoming Mexican populations. Unlike the past immigration that all came through the cities, many rural communities are finding large influxes of Latinos. Similarly, Sears in chicago was foundering, until they tapped into a population similar to their previous base, new immigrants.

 

[carouselvic]

I think the most honest response you'll most often hear today is that "it's too expensive to do the kind of quality work they did a hundred years ago."
I have had the pleasure of working for some people who had some "deep pockets." They had me stacking oak crown molding 14" deep and then in the next room they had me put oak crown up against drop in ceiling tile. You gotta keep the customer satisfied.

 

[Cody Pendant]

Why small towns die.

The reason is actually simple. We have changed economies. We have been steadily moving from the farm to the big city since the turn of the last century (1900's) and there is no going back. Small towns survived because of small farming. Now its BIG business with Mega farms. Small farms in a rural area supported a lot of people, mega farms are super efficient and only employ and support a very few. They no longer need people. No jobs, no people, no small business to support the people. Each town supported its own little economy. Basically self-sufficient. People also didn't want to live that way (rural) anymore. By that I mean poor. Thats why people moved to the city. People were getting rich (comparatively) in the city. Thats where the work is.
Downtowns as we remember them are not viable today. Today everyone drives 2 cars at the same time. Most Downtowns do not have adequate parking, no parking, no customers. Walk down a street to another store, forgetaboutit! Our shopping habits have changed also, how and what we buy.
The old buildings structurally may be sound, but try retrofitting our modern comfort-climate control in one. You can build new for less. To top it off as others have mentioned the surrounding areas age and run down.
Unless someone invents a way to have jobs in the rural areas that don't involve Agra business, I don't hold out much hope. Around here small towns survive by building prisons and slaughter houses for industry. The best you will probably find is a small town within driving commute of a big town. Welcome to the 21'st century. [huh]

 

[Flivver]

I wonder how some of the smaller cities in New England would be on this score. I know most of upstate New York's medium sized cities have decayed badly (Syracuse, Rochester, etc.). How are cities like Chicopee and Pittsfield and Worcester Mass doing these days? How livable are they? I know Hartford and New Haven are in sad shape.
Likewise, how about the mid south?

Worcester is actually getting better these days...at least parts of it are.

We still have some nice neighborhoods situated not far from groups of small shops and markets where you can obtain some necessities but not everything. For example, I walk to my dentist and barbershop.

And Worcester is still a college town with all the good things (and bad) that go with that. In addition, we have the Hanover Center for the Performing Arts (the restored Poli Palace Theatre) that has become the city's showpiece.

But on the negative side, Worcester is becoming a bedroom community for Boston with our lower property values attracting people to the area. So it's becoming congested...something I could do nicely without.

 

[Rick Blaine]

Mid size University towns

like Athens, GA., Chapel Hill NC & Charlottesville VA have alot going for them in this respect. When the big box retailers abandoned the downtown shopping districts they had occupied for a century the close proximity of the University gave these downtowns & in-town neighborhoods an organic reason for being and they have staged quite a comeback. When I was in Athens I lived in a 100 yr old house that was a block from a bakery/coffee house, a block from a small organic grocery & less than 1/2 m from the old downtown with its' city hall with the town clock than tolled on the hr. along w/ a large assortment of eateries, bars, retail & clubs. I was also about 1.5m to work & I walked everywhere. It was quite nice.

 

[Miss_Bella_Hell]

sets up a transient feature into the loop. Now pricey condos are still condos or apartments are still apartments to alot of people.

The transient feature has always been a theme in New England fishing towns. The population of Scituate doubles in the Summer; it's the way it has been since people have been "summering." [huh]

Scituate has good schools and almost no chain stores. There are no fast food joints. However, most people commute to Boston for work (by train or boat).

 

[dhermann1]

Foofoo, do you think you could hande the winters? This sort of dovetails with the old "Our own vintage town" thread. If only we could make find hijack or adapt our own small medium or large vintage town!

 

[Foofoogal]

I was wondering if a thread about how would you design a town sounded good.

I am not kidding when I say my first cousin was handpicked by Frank Lloyd Wright and lived on his place ( taliesan) (since Google and Yahoo are such messes I cannot find anything) if you may.
He completely designed a city that would take all of these factors into account. I thought he was nuts. Now not so much so.


Since I have never lived up North I have no idea if I could or not. lol

 

[Atterbury Dodd]

The local merchants who lose business are generally open when it is convenient for them, not their customers, and all the unsold stuff on their shelves is clearly not anything they want to buy.

I would have to disagree. Some of these smaller businesses can't afford to hire people to keep open during all hours. Who would go to a tiny general store late at night for a pair of work jeans or some matches? They close at five and they have worked a good day. Wall Mart has everything at more hours, so they can force smaller businesses with better selection and quality/service etc. out. But I better not get into Wally-World bashing, sometimes it gets as bad as politics!lol

 

[ShoreRoadLady]

That assures at least some steady employment thru county government, and often a bit of history if the old courthouse is still usable. If so, old houses or storefronts frequently become law offices, which lend a little upscale air.

Aha. Thanks for clarifying!

 

[ShoreRoadLady]

I would have to disagree. Some of these smaller businesses can't afford to hire people to keep open during all hours. Who would go to a tiny general store late at night for a pair of work jeans or some matches? They close at five and they have worked a good day. Wall Mart has everything at more hours, so they can force smaller businesses with better selection and quality/service etc. out. But I better not get into Wally-World bashing, sometimes it gets as bad as politics!lol

Yup. It's just not cost-effective. Unless the store is located in an area that stays busy after 5-7 or so, there's no point in staying open late. To be honest, I think we've become too used to *everything* staying open until the wee small hours, 7 days a week. Originally, that's what convenience stores were for. Now, you can shop for just about anything until 9 PM - or even later on weekends.

Another point: the more people you need to staff the store for all those extra hours, the less choosy you can be about their qualifications. (That, or start paying crazy prices for retail staff.) That means poorer service, which in turn lessens your competitive advantage against lower-priced stores like Wal-Mart.

 

[reetpleat]

The reason is actually simple. We have changed economies. We have been steadily moving from the farm to the big city since the turn of the last century (1900's) and there is no going back. Small towns survived because of small farming. Now its BIG business with Mega farms. Small farms in a rural area supported a lot of people, mega farms are super efficient and only employ and support a very few. They no longer need people. No jobs, no people, no small business to support the people. Each town supported its own little economy. Basically self-sufficient. People also didn't want to live that way (rural) anymore. By that I mean poor. Thats why people moved to the city. People were getting rich (comparatively) in the city. Thats where the work is.
Downtowns as we remember them are not viable today. Today everyone drives 2 cars at the same time. Most Downtowns do not have adequate parking, no parking, no customers. Walk down a street to another store, forgetaboutit! Our shopping habits have changed also, how and what we buy.
The old buildings structurally may be sound, but try retrofitting our modern comfort-climate control in one. You can build new for less. To top it off as others have mentioned the surrounding areas age and run down.
Unless someone invents a way to have jobs in the rural areas that don't involve Agra business, I don't hold out much hope. Around here small towns survive by building prisons and slaughter houses for industry. The best you will probably find is a small town within driving commute of a big town. Welcome to the 21'st century. [huh]

Good point. One other thing though, not all towns were agrarian. Don't forget the mill towns and other manufacturers in the south and eat. Unfortunately, those are all gone too, with jobs shipped overseas.

 

[kampkatz]

Time never stands still. Change is inevitable. Too bad we can't use crystal balls to see what the future will be like, so we can make all the right adaptations without suffering losses such as those already discussed.

 

[Gingerella72]

We have a classic late-19th-century courthouse which is still rock solid. But about ten years ago they tore down the attatched county jail building -- which they had to take down with a wrecking ball because the backhoes just bounced off -- and replaced it with a painfully ugly glass-and-steel District Court building that's already leaky and run-down looking. Yay for modern workmanship.

No kidding! At the university where I work, there is a dorm that was built in the 1930's (wish I had a photo of it, it's architecture is classic art deco) and it's more structurally sound than the other dorms that were built in the 1960's and later.

 

[reetpleat]

No kidding! At the university where I work, there is a dorm that was built in the 1930's (wish I had a photo of it, it's architecture is classic art deco) and it's more structurally sound than the other dorms that were built in the 1960's and later.

Yes, but one big earthquake an you will be glad to be in the new dorm. Not to mention electrical fires and such.

 

[InspectorMorse]

>>>>Interesting thread- daily I look at my small town of 10,000 and the other towns surrounding and think about how different it is here now. I remember my father telling me tales of "what used to be where here" as he was growing up in the 1930's and 40's and emphasizing how things always change. It was different in the 1960s and 70s here than today....The 3 downtown theaters in this town and the 2 in the town 6 miles up the road are long gone, Woolworths, GC Murphy- and all the 5 & 10 cents are gone, the many quality speciality clothing shops have given way to offices for accountants, doctors, or consignment stores. All the local radio stations are now owned by a couple of larger companies and have consolidated in the bigger town 10 miles town the road.....A&P is now a locally owned grocery store and the other small grocers left when the service stations became gas & convenience stores.. All the local Krogers moved to the strip malls. When an enclosed mall went up with all of the trendy chains- and strip malls galore went up- small towns changed. The movie theatre now is a few miles down the road with many screens, locals crowd Kmart, Walmart, Sears, JCPennys, Belk, Elderbeerman and the malls on weekends instead of crowding the many small towns in this area like their parents did... we choose chinese made items in quantity rather than taking pride in buying a few quality tailored items made here in the states- quantity over quality....the tax base left the small town for the suburbs and malls with easy parking between the small towns.... All the local Ford dealers combined into one dealership in the bigger town 10 miles away- the two GM dealers and the Chrysler dealer are still here in this town but there are always hints of more combining with the dealers in the other towns- especially the bigger twon with all those "foreign car dealerships".......We still try to figure out how to consolidate our half dozen high schools into a couple and the towns fight it yearly.... things always change
>>>In reference to a post above, it does seem the bigger college town are the best examples of how cool a town center used to be, as the college towns have turned into cool local havens to eat and shop- I like to visit those towns as it feels comfortable to someone who grew up in the old style small town.... the small town 6 miles up the road is successful in turning itself into a tourist town with lots of local restaurants, art galleries, and the like while my town used to be the shopping town and it is now offices and the like....
>>>>Larger thriving areas like Charlotte, NC's Birkdale Village has large new construction with cool streets and architecture in a town setting with the trendy chains on the bottom level and quality apartments on the upper levels- the megaplex theatre anchors the end of the main street with interesting places to eat at the intersections. Parking is on the streets and in garages alcoved between the shops- many must hunger for the towns they used to know or have heard of if this sort of center (or those in other areas like Atlanta, DC, etc) is any example
>>>Lastly, we are so much more mobile with better transportation that so many tend to shop regionally now, adding to the death of small towns.... shopping trips to large regional malls near large urban areas are common (I do this regularly) so you can go to much larger stores with more variety and often to find high quality items.....every big city has great shopping malls that make the small town malls look small....this has a bigger impact than the rare shopping trips to shop in big cites back in the 1940s.....We are far more mobile now
>>>>And, I don't know about you, but I shop online A LOT. For example, rather than traveling to the great camera store just 45 minutes away I instead shop at Amazon, Adorama, or Ritz...... Ease of buying anytime has impacted small local shops greatly... Even though I love that camera shop I often buy online.....go figure....
Things always change- is it better or worse- or just different?