What Happened to Chivalry?

[ThesFlishThngs]

While I do not believe that men, in general are 'scary and dangerous', when I am out and about alone, I make a point to have my wits about me, and be aware of who is in the vicinity. Head up, eyes ahead, a determined step, and all radars alert is how a woman has to be. I won't even bother to say 'these days', because I suspect it's always been so. There are people looking to prey on others, and in many cases it is man upon woman. Though I will never say a victim 'asked' for what happened to her, she does bear the responsibility of doing all she can to avert it.

My husband is another who makes a conscious effort to make women not feel threatened by him. Of course, he has also avoided driving my daughter's young friends home alone, insisting I or our daughter be in the car with them, because (sadly) you never know who will cry 'attack', and in such cases a person often has to prove himself innocent.

 

[Diamondback]

I am getting the concept. A person who carries a .38 cal weapon to "even thing up a bit" is just looking for a little peace, love and understanding....

Then I suppose you have a real problem with my companion Old Ugly the Wonder .45...

There's a difference between going out looking for trouble, and being prepared and capable of response just in case trouble insists on coming to you or those around you.

----------------
Now playing: John Williams - The Departure
via FoxyTunes

 

[MisterCairo]

Feminism happened. Chivalry is/was perceived as a value based upon the idea that women were weak and needed protection. Perhaps it is disappearing in the natural evolutionary change in human psychology.

To be replaced by something more adaptive and useful, perhaps.

Historically, chivalry had little to do with relations between men and women. It was primarily a mode of conduct in war and politics. Romantic poetry, ballads and historic revisionism reduced it to notions of knights on horseback rescuing maidens.

To this day, chivalry is taught as a means of lawful warfare, indeed, one of the tenets of the laws of armed conflict or the law of war (known in PC circles as International Humanitarian Law). Nothing to do with holding doors open for women.

 

[Miss 1929]

...but the whole things kind of sounds odd to me.

One, I do not believe in buying into this idea that men are scary and dangerous, and I have no tolerance for men or women that do. there is an odd strain in our culture that makes men out to be dangerous rapists and women to be helpless victims. I think this does a disservice to women and men alike. ...

Sounds like you have never been raped.

It happens to ONE OUT OF THREE AMERICAN WOMEN. But since historically it has been "shameful" for women, meaning that we have been MADE to feel ashamed of what we had no control over, then you probably have not heard about the one out of three women you know who has had this experience.

I wish the world were as safe as you seem to think it is... and that more men were as chivalrous as you seem to be!

 

[ThesFlishThngs]

I will second Miss 1929, as the mother of a young woman who has recently been taken advantage of in a way that has changed her life and turned 'friends' against her (friends who were upset that she reported the 'incident' to the police). That phone call at 3:30 am and subsequent hours in the ER are nothing I would wish on anyone.
Women/girls always have the potential to be subjected to force and exploitation.
Sometimes the world just sucks.

 

[Diamondback]

Which brings up a related tangent: how do us guys who have strong protective instincts (in my case, they're as much a curse as a gift because everything else I may be is subordinate to them) make the ladies who cross our paths aware of them and their possible complications, and that our intentions are benign?

Clarissa, my condolences to you and your daughter (and your entire household) on the situation.

----------------
Now playing: Taylor Dayne - Original Sin (Theme from the Shadow) [Film Remix]
via FoxyTunes

 

[Tomasso]

It happens to ONE OUT OF THREE AMERICAN WOMEN.

This is a startling statement. The moment I read it I immediately began to comb the Internet in search of corroborating studies. I found none. Would you please direct me to the source of your information.


Please do not interpret my query in any way as a defense of rape.

 

[drafttek]

Then I suppose you have a real problem with my companion Old Ugly the Wonder .45...

There's a difference between going out looking for trouble, and being prepared and capable of response just in case trouble insists on coming to you or those around you.

Exactly what I've been saying. Thank you, Diamondback.

 

[Carlisle Blues]

Then I suppose you have a real problem with my companion Old Ugly the Wonder .45...

There's a difference between going out looking for trouble, and being prepared and capable of response just in case trouble insists on coming to you or those around you.

I do not have a problem with your weapon. I agree with everything you just said.... However, that is not the original fact pattern.....

Exactly what I've been saying. Thank you, Diamondback.

Not really this is what you have been saying.

I'm not a big guy, but my .38 evens thing up a bit.

There is an inherent danger in this type of approach, as my previous posts have demonstrated.

 

[Carlisle Blues]

I agree. However, I trust my brother enough to know that he is not going to jump into a situation "presuming" that there is a perceived threat to a "victim". He's the sort of bloke you'll find in a pub when everyone is getting hot under the collar who will suggest everyone calms down and has a drink on him. However, if a stranger - for example - were to grab a woman (or if a male looked like his was in trouble, for that matter) late at night, he would make his presence known. Would he be inclined or capable of beating the assailant to a bloody pulp? No to the former, and the latter depends on the individual involved. But he would do what he could to within the utmost of his physical capabilities (so would I, for that matter - the only time I've been tested was an aggressive man on a bus verbally assailing the bus driver). But if a situation was "iffy" - i.e. a woman approached, raised voices, signs of distress, he's perfectly capable of a more nuanced response along the lines of "is everything alright here?" It's not a binary proposition - Woman approached on a dark street = physical response to the perceived threat. There are different ways of handling a situation, and I did not indicate that his first response would be violent.

There have been a couple of incidents recently in Sydney when strangers have attempted to grab children and young teens or take inappropriate photographs. In each case, bystanders have assisted the parents or have intervened to assist.

My statements are not attributable to any one person, especially, anyone here at the Fedora Lounge or their family members. My statements speak to a particular fact pattern that was presented.

I will say though, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. No one can predict with any degree of certainty how they will react in an emergency situation such as the one presented unless they are going in with preconceived notions or clear intent.

Someone I knew when I lived in Florida was a third party who intervened in a bar dispute. As it turned out he act of kindness resulted in brain injury so severe as to essentially end his life as a person who functioned normally. He no longer a competitive weight lifter nor is he able to understand simple instructions. The damage to this individual is devastating.

The above is but one example of what I had been saying in my previous posts.

Further, reacting to a situation is very different than lurking about waiting for something to happen; especially when there is no apparent danger or threat.

The other issues I have not broached include possibly being mistaken for a stalker, becoming a target yourself and being played for a fool by the person you are looking after by becoming a mark.

 

[Diamondback]

CB, sometimes when you have someone worth protecting, drawing the threat's attention yourself is the best or only option you have. If a fight must be picked, speaking for myself (even though my preference would be no fight at all) I'd rather it come to a more hardened target like myself (who has a better chance at surviving the crapstorm) than the more vulnerable, less... shall we say, "uniquely specialized"? folks around me.

There is a way to know what you'll do in a given situation, but it takes a lot of time spent in extensive stimulus->response conditioning--like how, when I was bodyguarding the college paper's editor, my entire day outside of either class class or acting as her "assistant" (my cover), was spent consulting with the Psych Department and a moonlighting cop and a couple other weapons/tactics experts in Campus Security on doctrine and conditioning. (Aside from the amount of time the Psych crew invested in ongoing maintenance and overhaul work on me...)

Misunderstood ya at first a little there, my apologies.

 

[The Good]

I'm a twenty-year-old college student, and I still uphold chivalry at most opportunities that I am able to. I doff my hat, I open the door for ladies if I am within a few yards, and these days, I address individuals by their corresponding honorific titles (Mr., Mrs., Miss, etc...), and I usually remember to take my hat off indoors, or in the presence of a lady or elderly person. It's a sad state of affairs that very few these days give a dime for any of this.

 

[Mojito]

Mojito is ome of my favorite loungers, so i trust her brother is cool too. So I will give the benefit of the doubt.

but the whole things kind of sounds odd to me.

One, I do not believe in buying into this idea that men are scary and dangerous, and I have no tolerance for men or women that do. there is an odd strain in our culture that makes men out to be dangerous rapists and women to be helpless victims. I think this does a disservice to women and men alike.

I would be inclined to walk with a smile on my face and a gentle attitude, and let the women who still freak out, deal with their own issues. But to walk around with a fantasy idea of coming to the rescue of a damsel in distress might appear to buy into the same odd pattern.

But, as i said, i am sure it is not quite like it sounds. I am sure your brother is a great guy.

No worries, reetpleet - I'm only concerned now from the reponses that I might have left his actions and attitude open to misinterpretation (and might have somehow derailed the discussion). To clarify, he doesn't wander around at night, looking for helpless women to defend, living out some sort of Quixotic fantasy. Like Diamondback says, there's a difference between looking for trouble and being prepared. I'm only aware of his actions because they came up in a conversation about what makes one feel uncomfortable in the city at night. He draws back to make women feel comfortable (which is not to say that all women will feel uncomfortable in that situation, but some will). Nor, in attempting to render assistance, does it follow that he'll go in with "all guns blazing" either metaphorically or literally. There are different ways to handle or diffuse a situation. I merely made the point that he will try to be on hand should our hypothetical late night walker require assistance.

I do stress, however, that I don't regard all men as potential attackers - far from it! I know the majority of people I encounter late night on the street are going to be just average joes trying to get where they're going (and, sadly, there are women out there who can also become physically or verbally violent). It's just that, practically speaking, we (and this must extend to men as well) have to take precautions and have a high level of situational awarness in certain situations, as ThesFlishThngs says. I don't run down unlit streets (and try to avoid finding myself in a situation where I need to walk down them), I try to avoid running or walking too close to cars or bushes etc where someone could be concealed, I don't set patterns where I'm running late night or early morning at the same time and route etc. Unfortunately it might sound a tad on the paranoid side, but that's how it is (it's not new, either - there's a cartoon from the 30s that shows a woman walking over the Harbour Bridge, celebrating her as the first lady able to make it over alone, because there had been so many assaults on ladies walking the bridge).

Sadly, even with all these precautions, and even with an awareness from having read and heard many accounts of attacks, we can still be vulnerable. When I was assailed on a run, it took my completely by surprise - it occured at a time and place when I felt as safe as I ever had, in daylight and with many people around. Grabbed, groped, subjected the most filthy stream of invective I've ever heard, and then as I was leaving the park I realised I'd been followed - I was stalked back to my gym by my attacker. There's more to the story as the incident took place over some time and was a tremendous shock to me, but I'm not keen on going into the details.

But please don't think I regard every man as a potential rapist or attacker. I just err on the side of safety (our security manager was the very soul of care and practical concern when I finally made it to work, and the gym staff were wonderful when I arrived and told them what had happened -not sure if that's chivalry or not, but these men were wonderful...and there were more of them than the one pervert).

Carlisle Blues, thanks for that clarification - I was just a bit taken aback to see my words about my brother's actions quoted in the context of a post about vigilantism, when my brother has a great respect for the law and consideration for other people. The idea of him as a self-appointed avenger looking to mete out justice is just so incongruous when one knows him! All he has is what I consider one of the most important elements to modern chivalry - a practical concern for other human beings, and a desire to be of unobtrusive service should the need arise.

 

[reetpleat]

While I do not believe that men, in general are 'scary and dangerous', when I am out and about alone, I make a point to have my wits about me, and be aware of who is in the vicinity. Head up, eyes ahead, a determined step, and all radars alert is how a woman has to be. I won't even bother to say 'these days', because I suspect it's always been so. There are people looking to prey on others, and in many cases it is man upon woman. Though I will never say a victim 'asked' for what happened to her, she does bear the responsibility of doing all she can to avert it.

My husband is another who makes a conscious effort to make women not feel threatened by him. Of course, he has also avoided driving my daughter's young friends home alone, insisting I or our daughter be in the car with them, because (sadly) you never know who will cry 'attack', and in such cases a person often has to prove himself innocent.

You say that like it is a fact, while I would suggest it is just your life view. While i will never know what it is like to be a woman, I do know women who, while taking normal precautions, do not think that there is a way women have to be, in constant danger of being victims.

While obviously, crime etc does happen, I do not walk around in fear of my m money or life. I do not view the world as a dangerous placed and much prefer it that way.

I also don't spend a lot of my time worry about a woman accusing me of something innapropriate. I gues it could happen, but it would not prevent me from giving someone a ride home.

But of course, everyone has to decide for themselves, what to do and ow to llive.

 

[reetpleat]

Sounds like you have never been raped.

It happens to ONE OUT OF THREE AMERICAN WOMEN. But since historically it has been "shameful" for women, meaning that we have been MADE to feel ashamed of what we had no control over, then you probably have not heard about the one out of three women you know who has had this experience.

I wish the world were as safe as you seem to think it is... and that more men were as chivalrous as you seem to be!

No, I have never been raped. But that has nothing to do with my world view. I do not think that even these statistics should make anyone think that men are dangerous, any more than I think murders or muggings mean that all humans are dangerous.

For one thing, very few of those rapes are from some stranger walking down the street. the vast majority are acquantances, friends etc. So what does that have to do with a guy walking down the street? it is this attitude ,that the man walking down the street is such a threat that allows all these date rapes and similar to be hidden and not considered or talked about enough.

As long as we have this image of the crazed rapist waiting in the alley, we will fail to address these issues in the way that they need to be addressed.

So, while not to deny you your right to your world view, please do not deny me mine, or suggest that it is somehow naive or wrong. i will give you the same courtesy. And it is not just me, the women I choose to date and be friends with generally share my world view.

 

[reetpleat]

No worries, reetpleet - I'm only concerned now from the reponses that I might have left his actions and attitude open to misinterpretation (and might have somehow derailed the discussion). To clarify, he doesn't wander around at night, looking for helpless women to defend, living out some sort of Quixotic fantasy. Like Diamondback says, there's a difference between looking for trouble and being prepared. I'm only aware of his actions because they came up in a conversation about what makes one feel uncomfortable in the city at night. He draws back to make women feel comfortable (which is not to say that all women will feel uncomfortable in that situation, but some will). Nor, in attempting to render assistance, does it follow that he'll go in with "all guns blazing" either metaphorically or literally. There are different ways to handle or diffuse a situation. I merely made the point that he will try to be on hand should our hypothetical late night walker require assistance.

I do stress, however, that I don't regard all men as potential attackers - far from it! I know the majority of people I encounter late night on the street are going to be just average joes trying to get where they're going (and, sadly, there are women out there who can also become physically or verbally violent). It's just that, practically speaking, we (and this must extend to men as well) have to take precautions and have a high level of situational awarness in certain situations, as ThesFlishThngs says. I don't run down unlit streets (and try to avoid finding myself in a situation where I need to walk down them), I try to avoid running or walking too close to cars or bushes etc where someone could be concealed, I don't set patterns where I'm running late night or early morning at the same time and route etc. Unfortunately it might sound a tad on the paranoid side, but that's how it is (it's not new, either - there's a cartoon from the 30s that shows a woman walking over the Harbour Bridge, celebrating her as the first lady able to make it over alone, because there had been so many assaults on ladies walking the bridge).

Sadly, even with all these precautions, and even with an awareness from having read and heard many accounts of attacks, we can still be vulnerable. When I was assailed on a run, it took my completely by surprise - it occured at a time and place when I felt as safe as I ever had, in daylight and with many people around. Grabbed, groped, subjected the most filthy stream of invective I've ever heard, and then as I was leaving the park I realised I'd been followed - I was stalked back to my gym by my attacker. There's more to the story as the incident took place over some time and was a tremendous shock to me, but I'm not keen on going into the details.

But please don't think I regard every man as a potential rapist or attacker. I just err on the side of safety (our security manager was the very soul of care and practical concern when I finally made it to work, and the gym staff were wonderful when I arrived and told them what had happened -not sure if that's chivalry or not, but these men were wonderful...and there were more of them than the one pervert).

Carlisle Blues, thanks for that clarification - I was just a bit taken aback to see my words about my brother's actions quoted in the context of a post about vigilantism, when my brother has a great respect for the law and consideration for other people. The idea of him as a self-appointed avenger looking to mete out justice is just so incongruous when one knows him! All he has is what I consider one of the most important elements to modern chivalry - a practical concern for other human beings, and a desire to be of unobtrusive service should the need arise.

While I speak of world views, I also do recognize that any person, especially women, is wise to take a little care and be aware of what they are doing and where they are. And I do know that every woman, in the back of her mind, thinks about things men don't really have to.

I am sorry to hear you had a bad incident. Glad it has not changed your ability to appreciate all the good men out there.

I never thought your brother sounded like a vigilante. You never said anything about roaming the streets looking for trouble.

 

[reetpleat]

While i have nothing against people who are into, or carry guns, I do have a little concern. As the old saying goes, "when all you have is a hammer, suddenly every problem starts to look like a nail."

 

[Carlisle Blues]

I'm only concerned now from the reponses that I might have left his actions and attitude open to misinterpretation (and might have somehow derailed the discussion).

You did not I took it to one possible and most dangerous ending. Taking the fact pattern away from any individual and keeping it objective opened the door for discussion and varied perspectives.

 

[BinkieBaumont]

"A few years ago i was waiting for a Train late at night, at the City's main railway station when a T.O Chap was upsetting an elderly Lady, I intervened and the chap swung a Punch ( Which I dodged) suddenly a young man who was sitting on a bench reading a book jumped up and produced ID he was an undercover security card, employed by the railway system":eusa_clap lol :eusa_clap

 

[ThesFlishThngs]

You say that like it is a fact, while I would suggest it is just your life view. While i will never know what it is like to be a woman, I do know women who, while taking normal precautions, do not think that there is a way women have to be, in constant danger of being victims.

While obviously, crime etc does happen, I do not walk around in fear of my m money or life. I do not view the world as a dangerous placed and much prefer it that way.

I also don't spend a lot of my time worry about a woman accusing me of something innapropriate. I gues it could happen, but it would not prevent me from giving someone a ride home.

But of course, everyone has to decide for themselves, what to do and ow to llive.

The only thing I see as fact is that the potential is always there; an attack can conceivably happen anytime, and to anyone, as can an out-of-the-blue accusation of inappropriateness.
I can honestly say I do not spend much (if any) of my time living in fear, despite having a home in the midst of the 'hood. We still have several friends from the 'burbs who are a bit frightened to visit us, and have even asked if it's safe to park their cars in the street. That all comes from perspective, I suppose, as well as a comfort level in what one is accustomed to. Here in the old part of town we have sidewalks and people of all types and colors readily seen out and about. Are some of them up to no good? Most likely, but hardly the majority.
Until this past summer, I didn't regularly lock my back door while I was home. It didn't seem probable that someone would fight through the underbrush of the park that borders my back yard, fidget with the wired gate, and walk right into my kitchen door. Of course, that's exactly what happened one Sunday while I was obliviously cutting the grass in the front yard.
Coming in to see computer, camera, purse, money, etc. all missing was a shock of realism. Has it made me view my neighborhood differently, or caused me to constantly look over my shoulder and barricade myself in the house? No, but it woke me up to being more aware of what can and does happen.
I do lock all doors now, even when I'm home, because let's face it - the only thing worse than being out in the front garden when an intruder enters the house is to be inside with him.
Being smart, aware, and relatively confident in one's ability to not shrink into a puddle of patheticness at the first sign of trouble is not the same as living in constant fear of 'what if'.