Vintage Suitings: Discussions of, and sourcing modern equivalents, etc.

[Two Types]

Some (but not all) of the Bookster jackets were made for them by Mears http://bespokemears.co.uk/
I have the details of the company who made their trousers and waistcoats and will post these when I dig them out.

 

[DamianM]

I think im late on the cord discussion but I have a jacket with very similar corduroy like fabric. Very short. I must wear my really high waist slacks for this one.
heres an old image I can update images if needed.

 

[Barmey]

Anyone know where you can find decent Wool Serge Suiting? Old Town uses it quite alot but I cant find any.

 

[Two Types]

Serge

This is from the Hainsworth website:

"A wide ride range of baratheas, serge, panama, whipcord, cavalry twill, infantry and gabardine worsteds of the highest quality with excellent finish and drape characteristics. Our worsted range is used for mess dress, uniforms and high quality tailored garments.

The majority of this range is available as stock items with the addition that our gaberdine and panama worsteds can be dyed in additional colours to meet your specific requirements and the exception that our serge is available by special order."

http://www.hainsworth.co.uk/apparel-fabrics/authentic-costume-fabrics/worsted

 

[herringbonekid]

serge was everywhere in the 20s - in the U.S. it seems it was as standard as flannel over here- but doesn't seem very popular now, probably because of it's associations with scratchy military uniforms.

from the Cad and the Dandy site:

"wool serge is principally used as a military dress cloth, and is an unpopular material these days. It lacks the refinement demanded by many of today’s bespoke customers, lacks depth of tone and is famous for its tendency to ‘shine’ after extended use and ironing."

 

[Fastuni]

Serge was also standard for 1920-50's Continental suitings. I love it, although shine is a problem (mostly with black or navy).
I don't get what they mean with "lacks refinement and depth of tone". Serge fabrics are superbly refined with great patterns and colors. Sure, they aren't as "saturated" as some flannels, but serge can come in wonderful deep tones, with the structure having a gently muting effect.

 

[herringbonekid]

i don't think i've ever seen a patterned serge before. in the vintage catalogues i have they're always solid colours, usually navy, grey or brown.

 

[Fastuni]

Am I using the name "serge" in a wrong context?

Is this pinstripe not serge?

 

[herringbonekid]

Fastuni, i wasn't saying it doesn't exist... just i've never seen it.

that does looks like serge, but admittedly there is a bit of a grey area where serge becomes worsted flannel... the two look very similar.
in vintage catalogues it seems serge is always solid, and the patterns are in worsted, tweeds, flannels etc.
might have been different in Germany and other parts of Europe though.

 

[Qirrel]

and the patterns are in worsted,

Serge is most often a worsted, to be precise. I agree that "serge" as used in vintage catalogs seems to be synonymous with plain, subdued color twill weave cloth. I have good experience with Harrisons Burely's cloths (they are on ebay); they have some nice twill worsteds, which I guess could be classified as serge, in various "tailoring" colors i.e. gray, blue etc. They are not as heavy as I would like, though, at about 430 gsm.

 

[herringbonekid]

according to this page you can get 'Botany worsted' serge in twill or herringbone:

... if serge is worsted and comes in either twill or herringbone weave then how do we differentiate it from standard worsted twill suiting ?

 

[Qirrel]

I don't think you can.

 

[Flat Foot Floey]

Maybe it is meant as "Ceviot Serge (or), Twill or Herringbone"

 

[Guttersnipe]

This is from the Hainsworth website:

"A wide ride range of baratheas, serge, panama, whipcord, cavalry twill, infantry and gabardine worsteds of the highest quality with excellent finish and drape characteristics. Our worsted range is used for mess dress, uniforms and high quality tailored garments.

The majority of this range is available as stock items with the addition that our gaberdine and panama worsteds can be dyed in additional colours to meet your specific requirements and the exception that our serge is available by special order."

http://www.hainsworth.co.uk/apparel-fabrics/authentic-costume-fabrics/worsted

Thanks for posting this link, TT. I've also been looking for a good heavy weight, blue serge for a long time. They have a 475g worsted serge that is exactly what I want!

 

[Fastuni]

Maybe it is meant as "Ceviot Serge (or), Twill or Herringbone"

Hm... the sentence could mean this, but then what would be the difference between the "Cheviot Serge" and "Twill", if normally serge is woven in twill?
Also the header reads "Serge", so I think it indeed means that the serge comes in either twill or herringbone weave.

So could it be this?

"Worsted" = worsted with pattern, structure stripes and/or multiple colors
"Serge" = monochromatic worsted regardless of weave (mostly twill)

 

[herringbonekid]

in the definite serges (mainly army) i've seen the diagonal rib is much more pronounced than in a worsted flannel where the diagonal is there but much more subtle.
(in old catalogue illustrations of serge they always emphasise the rib).

in a smooth worsted twill suit fabric the diagonal rib would again be very subtle; worsted is woven from a tightly spun fine yarn. i would imagine the yarn for serge is coarser as serge generally has a 'scratchier' feel (the fact that it mentions 'worsted' in the catalogue above doesn't help, but i maintain that serge would have been rougher than your typical 'worsted').

Fastuni, the pinstripe fabric you posted may very well be serge, but i think it's very difficult to tell a worsted flannel from a serge once the diagonal ribs become similar in prominence.

all very confusing i know.

 

[Barmey]

Thanks for the help gents

Certainly food for thought. I have two jackets from the 20s, both made of navy serge. It was the staple hardwearing working mans cloth. That association may be the reason I'm not likely to find it amongst swatch books of luxury suitings today.

I think some of the P&B Universals are fairly close.

 

[herringbonekid]

Barmey, please post a photo of the serge if you have time.

there's a small 20s suit on ebay right now. i'm certain this is serge:

 

[Qirrel]

That is what I thought serge looked like, too. Exactly like the worsted twill I got from harrisons burely. I would post some pictures if my memory card reader wasn't broken.

 

[Fastuni]

Thanks for the photo hbk. I now have a better idea of what serge is... the WW2 US (Enlisted and NCO) Service Tunics are made from this... scratchy and with a distinct rigidity and pronouced diagonal lines.

The pinstripe fabric I posted on the contrary is smoother and lighter... a classic worsted.