Vintage Suitings: Discussions of, and sourcing modern equivalents, etc.

[Rudie]

Somehow I doubt that they were wearing 18oz. cream flannels in summer. I seem to recall a source here on the Lounge were they had summer weights as light as 10 or 11oz. Surely the cream flannels for summer wear were around 12 to 14oz. and not in a heavy winter weight?

 

[Broccoli]

Well we can not focus too much on weight when regarding fabrics since there must be other factors involved in draping. Fabrics must have been made entirely different.

 

[Broccoli]

Also, to someone new to buying fabrics, just how expensive is this fabric? Is it worth it? Is it easy to get cream stained?

 

[herringbonekid]

Somehow I doubt that they were wearing 18oz. cream flannels in summer. I seem to recall a source here on the Lounge were they had summer weights as light as 10 or 11oz. Surely the cream flannels for summer wear were around 12 to 14oz. and not in a heavy winter weight?

the vintage British cream / cricket flannels i've seen in person have all been heavy, but it's likely that there were lighter weight versions... i just haven't seen any.

the question is really how light should you go before wide legged trousers no longer drape well and start to look 'flappy' ?

 

[herringbonekid]

Also, to someone new to buying fabrics, just how expensive is this fabric? Is it worth it? Is it easy to get cream stained?

the Fox 13-14oz cream flannel is £92 a metre.

easy to stain ? depends how careful you are.

 

[Broccoli]

the Fox 13-14oz cream flannel is £92 a metre.

easy to stain ? depends how careful you are.

I am aware of the pricing, but just how severe is the price compared to other similar? This cannot be cheap, right?

 

[Rudie]

the vintage British cream / cricket flannels i've seen in person have all been heavy, but it's likely that there were lighter weight versions... i just haven't seen any.

the question is really how light should you go before wide legged trousers no longer drape well and start to look 'flappy' ?

I have a pair made from 12oz. John G. Hardy gabardine and another one from 13oz. Irish linen by Harrison's of Edinburgh. They both drape quite well, but I wouldn't want to go below that. The heavier stuff does indeed look much better to me.

 

[herringbonekid]

This cannot be cheap, right?

no, it's the high end. shop around and let us know if you find a heavy cream flannel !

 

[Broccoli]

I probably won't find anything. I don't mind paying as long as I get my moneys worth with the fox fabric. The samples are free at least.

 

[Guttersnipe]

Somehow I doubt that they were wearing 18oz. cream flannels in summer. I seem to recall a source here on the Lounge were they had summer weights as light as 10 or 11oz. Surely the cream flannels for summer wear were around 12 to 14oz. and not in a heavy winter weight?

A few pages back in this thread, I posted a scan of a period text discussing weights by season; however, it was a tad late (1947) and American. It seems clothes used in Europe were typically heavier than those used in the United States.

Trousers wear "cooler" than jackets, so you can wear trousers made of heavier cloth in summer an not feel as hot as if wearing an entire suit of the same cloth. Also, there are a lot of places where summer isn't that hot. For example, those southern coast beach towns in England (where men wore cream flannels a ton in the 30s) are hardly what the rest of the world calls warm - even in the summer! Where I live too, locals joke that we have a unique month known only here called "FOGugust!" (“The coldest winter I ever spent was a summer in San Francisco.”)

Also, in the 30s, flannel trousers were essentially for sporting/outdoors wear. In old Apparel Arts books and Esquire magazines, I see flannels advertised as great for golfing, walking in the country, loafing about on the weekend, etc. In that sense, they were sort of the "nice jeans" or "casual khakis" of their day. As such, I suspect heavier fabrics were popular because they are more hard wearing.

. . . Fabrics must have been made entirely different.

Looming technology has changed over the centuries, but the essence of fabric weaving is the same. Today, mills utilize high twist yarns a lot to make so-called supers, but companies like Fox Brothers probably haven't changed much about their manufacturing processes in the last 50-70 years.

 

[Broccoli]

I didn't think it was possible to get as high quality fabrics as back then anymore, am I wrong? The fox flannel can't be as good.

 

[herringbonekid]

some vintage Kay's catalogue scans on the subject of flannels:


1923. note the use of the terms ; 'extra stout' (read: heavy) and 'serviceable all the year around' (read: 'we're British. we wear heavy any season')

1928. no mention of weight here unfortunately :

1930. 'super stout, hard wearing' 'serviceable all the year around':

1931. 'super stout, hard wearing' 'serviceable all the year around':

1933. 'durable':

 

[herringbonekid]

I didn't think it was possible to get as high quality fabrics as back then anymore, am I wrong? The fox flannel can't be as good.

the LL range by Fox are as good in my opinion (as far as flannel goes). they're basically reproduced from the original 30s archive.
sadly at £120 a metre they are beyond my budget.

 

[Rudie]

All heavy trousers are grey. The ad for the cream ones doesn't mention the weight. I believe the cream flannel was very likely to be lighter than grey flannel. Cream is not the best color for winter wear and those flannels were surely meant to be worn on the warmer/sunnier days of the year. I have a pair made of 15/16oz. Minnis flannel. I wouldn't want to wear them in 25°C. It gets very uncomfortable. In fall, winter and spring they are pretty much my most comfy trousers. My 12oz. gabardines on the other hand are still quite manageable in 30°C.

 

[Guttersnipe]

I didn't think it was possible to get as high quality fabrics as back then anymore, am I wrong? The fox flannel can't be as good.

The notion that anything vintage is inherently higher quality/better made than anything modern is a common view, but it's wrongheaded in principle. The cloth produced by top quality firms like Harrison, Fox Brothers, and even Holland & Sherry is probably better quality the any clothes used on suits made for Penny's or Sear's 60 years ago. The main difference is the weights, weaves, and variety of patterns. Finding modern cloth that is equivalent in those respects is hard.

 

[Tomasso]

I didn't think it was possible to get as high quality fabrics as back then anymore, am I wrong?

Yes, you are wrong. There are many oldtime cloth merchants who will say that the high end stuff available today is superior in quality to the best from the days of yore. Now, comparisons of aesthetics and weight are another story.....

 

[Broccoli]

Those were some great looking trousers. Now only if I could have them. Also I like their reissue fabrics a lot. Could you recommend that 15oz grey flannel, Rudie? I might as well get a pair for the fall. Then I'd have some time to perfect the trouser model too. Does anyone have like an illustration or such for just the perfect 1930s flannel trousers? Perhaps a bit of topic, I'd take suggestions via PM too if anyone has an opinion.

 

[herringbonekid]

There are many oldtime cloth merchants who will say that the high end stuff available today is superior in quality to the best from the days of yore.

entirely depends on how you define 'superior'. if they mean ultra light weight, fine yarn, soft as shirting feel ... then yes, it's superior.

 

[Broccoli]

I don't doubt that fox makes good fabric. But if I look at one of my old 40s white cotton shirts, that fabric is just fantastic. It is so beautiful, durable and still as white as it gets after 70 years. Even the most expensive shirts today would never be like that. And I won't even get started regarding the fit!

 

[Chasseur]

yes, that's the 13-14oz 'cricket white' (really cream) flannel in the link above. i have a swatch too. it's good, but would be great it it was 18oz.

I've gotten in swatches of their cream flannel and I've sent them to my tailor in India. When I visit next year I am going to see about getting a couple of pairs of "cricket/tennis" trousers done up on an old 1950s pattern that they've used for gray flannel before.