Things That Never Seem to Change

[sheeplady]

I think that's the problem with a lot of people who try to go vegetarian and fail, honestly: they try to replace meat with meat substitutes and have the mindset that a meal is a vegetable, a meat, and a starch. The great vegetarian food I've had is not just copies of "meat dishes" but actually vastly different dishes that are created for and designed around the ingredients in them... not trying to achieve something like meat.

I was vegan at one point (a very short time after my cancer treatment when my ex-nutritionist had the fear of animal products and any type of dietary fat in me. These were half truths and based upon very small studies with very small differences in survival). I enjoyed it, but found it much too difficult to maintain, and I believe a big part is because I wasn't "ethically" involved, but doing it to save my own hide. I was also avoiding overly processed stuff, so it was really hard to find "quick" meals. Now I am about 70-80% vegetarian, which means that the vast majority of my meals don't involve meat, and I likely go a week on occasion without consuming meat.

 

[vitanola]

I stand corrected, then.

I was joshing you, madame. Of course you were referring to Shuron's famous brow line frames, the "Ronsir Zyl", which are, of course, still available, and which remain unchanged since their introduction in 1947.

I applaud the continued availability and renewed popularity of the "Ronsir" frames, but lament the discontinuation of the old Astigmt Pince Nez, for those are the eyeglasses which I wear. Replacements are awfully thin on the ground these days.

 

[Zombie_61]

That's just wrong. It's like "non-alcoholic vodka".

At least a term like "veggie burger" is honest. It's not like calling something a "hamburger" when it contains no ham whatsoever.

...As to the veggie burger, I think the problem is the name and messaging. My girlfriend doesn't eat red meat (I do, but only occasionally) so we have eaten veggie burgers for years. If you think of them a meat substitutes, IMHO, you are going to be disappointed every single time. None of them taste like red meat burgers.

But if you think of them as their own food - as a veggie / grain-based "patty" then some are outstanding. I really enjoy some and look forward to having them (as they don't "sit" in your stomach the way red meat does in mine and, overall, just feel lighter and healthier), but I never kid myself that they are anything but a veggie/grain food that will not taste like red meat. Similarly, we enjoy turkey burgers because we expect the to taste like ground turkey not ground beef.

I couldn't agree more. I've eaten a number of "veggie" burgers over the years and found most of them to be very tasty, but was never once fooled into thinking I was eating meat. I like veggie burgers and hamburgers, they're just different. I also like turkey burgers, but they don't like me--every time I've eaten one an upset stomach was the result, and I don't know why because I can eat turkey right off of the bone with no problems.

 

[Trenchfriend]

@Zombie_61
Maybe, the white-flour rolls in combination with the "rotten meat".

Same, like on german Döner Kebab. The german Döner-meat causes upset stomach and flatulence to me, but there are different types of meat used from town to town. In my smalltown, they are making delicious Döner with Pute/turkey, which is unusal.

Or it could be the Natrium-Glutamat on this, which causes allergic reactions on many people.

 

[HudsonHawk]

As to the veggie burger, I think the problem is the name and messaging. My girlfriend doesn't eat red meat (I do, but only occasionally) so we have eaten veggie burgers for years. If you think of them a meat substitutes, IMHO, you are going to be disappointed every single time. None of them taste like red meat burgers.

But if you think of them as their own food - as a veggie / grain-based "patty" then some are outstanding. I really enjoy some and look forward to having them (as they don't "sit" in your stomach the way red meat does in mine and, overall, just feel lighter and healthier), but I never kid myself that they are anything but a veggie/grain food that will not taste like red meat. Similarly, we enjoy turkey burgers because we expect the to taste like ground turkey not ground beef.

I have no problem with eating a "vegetable sandwich". Even as a patty on a bun. Just don't call it a "burger". It's like saying "I made a pizza, but I didn't use any dough...or cheese. I just put the sauce in a bowl and eat it with a spoon...best pizza ever." No, you made tomato soup, which may be tasty, but it's not pizza.

 

[Fading Fast]

I have no problem with eating a "vegetable sandwich". Even as a patty on a bun. Just don't call it a "burger". It's like saying "I made a pizza, but I didn't use any dough...or cheese. I just put the sauce in a bowl and eat it with a spoon...best pizza ever." No, you made tomato soup, which may be tasty, but it's not pizza.

I hear ya, and tried to touch on that with my "I think the problem is the name and messaging." But in truth, I think that ship has sailed and they are now "veggie burgers." It's also funny that you mention pizza, as we've noticed a - how to say this - "expanding" definition of what pizza is in the last several years.

If it has a dough bottom and some toppings, many places call that pizza, with the worst offenders putting chocolate and strawberries on top of a sweet flat bread, for example, and calling it "dessert pizza." Oh well, I got over my being a word scold years ago (although, it still drives me nuts that some modify "unique" as in "very unique," argh, something is "unique" or not, it can't be "very unique" - okay, I'm done). As Lizzie has scolded me, words evolve and their meanings change, expand or shrink over time. I think "burger" and "pizza" are going down the expansive etymology route.

 

[HudsonHawk]

I hear ya, and tried to touch on that with my "I think the problem is the name and messaging." But in truth, I think that ship has sailed and they are now "veggie burgers." It's also funny that you mention pizza, as we've noticed a - how to say this - "expanding" definition of what pizza is in the last several years.

One of my all-time favorite pizza rants is the Jon Stewart one about Chicago style pizza. After the "it's not pizza, it's a casserole" and "it's marinara sauce in a bread bowl" comments, he pops the final cap with "you know how I know I'm right?...you call yours 'Chicago-style pizza'...you call yours 'deep dish pizza'...you know what we call it?....'Pizza'!"

And don't get me started with those uncircumcised Philistines who put beans in their chili...

If it has a dough bottom and some toppings, many places call that pizza, with the worst offenders putting chocolate and strawberries on top of a sweet flat bread, for example, and calling it "dessert pizza." Oh well, I got over my being a word scold years ago (although, it still drives me nuts that some modify "unique" as in "very unique," argh, something is "unique" or not, it can't be "very unique" - okay, I'm done). As Lizzie has scolded me, words evolve and their meanings change, expand or shrink over time. I think "burger" and "pizza" are going down the expansive etymology route.

Lizzie? Just call it "artisanal pizza". And then duck.

 

[BlueTrain]

I eat meat everyday; red, white, pink and, uh, well, that's about it. But I'm probably still about 95% vegetarian in a sense. But in another sense, I'm not vegetarian at all.

I've often wondered if those who do not eat meat because they abhor the idea of killing an animal for food would still eat vegetables if they had to dig them out of the ground.

 

[Zombie_61]

...Just call it "artisanal pizza". And then duck.

Don't get me started. These "artisanal/boutique" pizza places hook people with their advertising by saying things like, "You tell us what you want on your pizza, and we'll make it exactly how you want it." News flash--that's how all restaurants work; don't act like you've reinvented the culinary wheel.

...I've often wondered if those who do not eat meat because they abhor the idea of killing an animal for food would still eat vegetables if they had to dig them out of the ground.

"I'll kill and eat this living thing, but I won't kill and eat that living thing." If you're an adult and you want to be a vegetarian or vegan, that's fine with me; I don't need to know your justification. Just don't try to force your choices on me or anyone/anything else.

 

[tonyb]

^^^^^
I don't find it unreasonable to take exception with what we humans subject sentient creatures to so that we can more cost-effectively put their flesh in our stomachs. I'm not yet so sympathetic to that perspective as to refrain from consuming animal products myself, but I'm not deaf to it.

Even the life of your typical dairy cow has been diminished (in length and in "quality") by the demands of the market. Small family dairies that once milked 40 cows are now milking four times that many. The beasts no longer graze, but spend their lives under cover, packed in with hundreds of others, often. Feed is trucked in, manure is trucked out. And the animals get burned out.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Where I draw the line is when people try to turn pets into vegans. A cat is an obligate carnivore. Its human may not like this, but it's a biological fact, and feeding a cat a vegan diet is not safe or healthy for that cat. Those who will argue otherwise are invariably either militant ideologues or those in the business of selling vegan cat food, and you may take that for what you will.

 

[MisterCairo]

Where I draw the line is when people try to turn pets into vegans. A cat is an obligate carnivore. Its human may not like this, but it's a biological fact, and feeding a cat a vegan diet is not safe or healthy for that cat. Those who will argue otherwise are invariably either militant ideologues or those in the business of selling vegan cat food, and you may take that for what you will.

Eyeing the tuna in a bowl, and not a grain in sight.

Twist has sent many a mouse to its grave, and rightly bloody so...

 

[ChiTownScion]

Don't get me started. These "artisanal/boutique" pizza places hook people with their advertising by saying things like, "You tell us what you want on your pizza, and we'll make it exactly how you want it." News flash--that's how all restaurants work; don't act like you've reinvented the culinary wheel.

"I'll kill and eat this living thing, but I won't kill and eat that living thing." If you're an adult and you want to be a vegetarian or vegan, that's fine with me; I don't need to know your justification. Just don't try to force your choices on me or anyone/anything else.

I remember when my sister in law was pulling this crap: we'd be invited to dinner and then have to choke down her vegetarian or poultry choice de jour. Never beef. Then she spent a week at a working dude ranch, and all of a sudden, beef was "in." At every meal.

It wasn't what was served that was annoying. It was that the choice was always governed by what her fad happened to be that particular week. We were invited to a Thanksgiving dinner, for example, and were emailed a specific recipe for Ethiopian yams for our pass around dish. My dear wife told her to pound sand, and brought a chocolate chip cheesecake- to her eternal credit.

 

[tonyb]

I suspect that a cat could subsist healthily if not happily on a diet free of meat. Just as can humans, who also have flesh-ripping incisors and canines.

But putting a cat or dog through a meat-free life so as to spare other animals from human cruelty is, well, kinda ironic. And would be the sort of indulgence that those with more pressing concerns would find among the more comical practices of pampered Western brats.

 

[Harp]

One thing that has changed is the Chicago Bears draft tactics. General manager Brian Pace tossed four trade pick chips into the pot
to sign Tarheel QB Mitch Trubisky in some truly serious shirtfront poker.

 

[Fading Fast]

This is one of the reason why I love my girlfriend.

Here is her "I don't eat red meat" story.

She does't want to personally be part of a process that kills cows, pigs, etc. She has no issue with others doing it - does not judge them or preach to them ever. She knows her view is completely inconsistent as she eats chicken and fish.

She fully recognizes that she has no moral consistency herself on this topic, let alone one to inflict on others. That said, she doesn't want to personally be part of that particular killing chain, so she opted out.

And she will cook it for others as she sincerely gets that her choice is one that simply works for her, but is not morally superior to or "right" for others.

The part I love is that she fully recognizes and acknowledges the inconsistency in her logic / that it is not a defendable position other than as a personal choice and that she makes no negative judgement of others for what they eat. Almost all of us have inconsistencies in our logic and choices - that's fine, IMHO, as long as we are honest about it to ourselves and others and as long as it doesn't hurt others.

 

[HudsonHawk]

Where I draw the line is when people try to turn pets into vegans. A cat is an obligate carnivore. Its human may not like this, but it's a biological fact, and feeding a cat a vegan diet is not safe or healthy for that cat. Those who will argue otherwise are invariably either militant ideologues or those in the business of selling vegan cat food, and you may take that for what you will.

I'm not a cat person, but I'm thinking of trying to find an old barn cat for the ranch. Had to wrangle a snake off the kitchen countertops last week, and I know it's because there have been some little field mice in the house. Cat gets mice, snakes stay outside. Only problem is, I'm not there full time, and not sure said cat can fend for itself for weeks at a time. Maybe if it had a pet burro to keep it company...

 

[BlueTrain]

Like I say, some people wouldn't like digging their vegetable out of the ground, either.

 

[LizzieMaine]

I'm not a cat person, but I'm thinking of trying to find an old barn cat for the ranch. Had to wrangle a snake off the kitchen countertops last week, and I know it's because there have been some little field mice in the house. Cat gets mice, snakes stay outside. Only problem is, I'm not there full time, and not sure said cat can fend for itself for weeks at a time. Maybe if it had a pet burro to keep it company...

Barn cats can be very pleasant company, and sometimes they can turn into house cats without you ever realizing it.

 

[Inkstainedwretch]

I think all of our meat anxieties and neuroses stem from the fact that we evolved to eat mammoth, which the supermarket doesn't stock. We've been trying to find a substitute ever since.