The Wifely Duties

[Nick Charles]

I usually don't get involved with ed issues that for the misses, but working at the same school I can attest for the lack of parent involvement. Just Wednesday there was a parent/voulunteer meeting and only 6 people showed up. For over 700 kids---you do the math. Love ya honey....

 

[jamespowers]

I am a public school teacher. I don't agree that smaller class sizes would not make a difference. I am responsible for over 30 students. That means teaching them the essential skills that they need to know to be productive members of society. I have almost NO parental support (Thank you Wolf, I wish all parents were like you!) and yet am held ENTIRELY accountable for their successes. My salary IS based on their performance and so is my contract. But due to the lack of parenting I experience, I am not only a student's teacher of academics, but of morality, manners, etc...times 30. Therefore, smaller classes, and more money WOULD allow me to get close to producing those "geniuses" you are looking for. I work really hard each year to give students every opportunity they deserve. I think teachers have been given a bad reputation by people who think it is so easy to teach. Every successful business person I have had in my class says they wouldn't trade places with me for anything. It makes my job even harder (and breaks my spirit) to have to defend my profession, but I will with every student that I see learn and succeed. We're not all bad...

So all academic problems are the parent's fault? I don't know about your state but in mine there are several things that are not the same by your account. More than 30 people in the classroom populated every class I had from kindergarten to 12th grade. The rooms were jam-packed. The same was true when my mother went to the same public schools 30 years before me. We both learned. Further, college classes were at least 40 people per room and up to 200. We learned there too.
Possibly your structural model in your area is better than what we have to deal with here. I did say "at least that is the way it is here." Whatever the case, the teachers here have absolutely no accountability. They get a salary based on the number of years they are employed here (seniority) and maybe prior experience. I have dealt with the problems here for over 15 years now and no matter what is done other than addressing the structural problems, nothing makes a difference. Like I mentioned previously, none of the ancillary stuff made a difference from money to smaller class size.
Teaching morals and such is not the responsibility of the school and it should not be forced upon you. If they can't sit still or pay attention then they need to be removed from those that can and want to learn.
I guess I am going to have to roll out the "Money And School Performance:
Lessons from the Kansas City Desegregation Experiment" by Paul Ciotti. Money and small class size DOES NOT solve educational problems. It has been proved time and again. First in the Kansas City School District in a cost is no object case. So class size and money would make a difference? The how about "higher teachers' salaries, 15 new schools, and such amenities as an Olympic-sized swimming pool with an underwater viewing room, television and animation studios, a robotics lab, a 25-acre wildlife sanctuary, a zoo, a model United Nations with simultaneous translation capability, and field trips to Mexico and Senegal and the student-teacher ratio was 12 or 13 to 1, the lowest of any major school district in the country?" Think that would make a difference? WRONG? It didn't. "The results were dismal. Test scores did not rise; the black-white gap did not diminish; and there was less, not greater, integration."
See it for yourself at either:http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-298.html
or http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPorta...ails&objectId=0900000b80137a67&accno=ED418160
I have studied this subject for over a decade. This is not the only case. Money does not solve all academic problems or even some and I do not lay the blame solely at the teacher's feet. Low academic achievement is usually met with the we need more money from the district itself and not the teachers. They never focus inward and ask what they could be doing better as a district to serve the students here. The teachers are used as pawns in this game. They hamstring the teacher into believing that only money could solve their problems when the district could help the teachers by getting out of their way and letting them teach without forcing them to place things in the curriculum that need not be there. I have seen politics being brought into geology classes and math classes. There was just no reason for it. Restrict the discussion to the subject at hand. I could go on for pages. I just might have a book in all the information I have accumulated but that is for another day.
I never said teachers are all bad. I didn't even say one teacher is bad.

Regards to all,

J

 

[Nora Charles]

You're right we each have our own experiences and we are off topic.

Peace

 

[scotrace]

Extremely Off Topic since post three...

This is way off the original poster's topic of lost intimacy in modern marriages and how that relates to the same situation in the Golden era. Since we've essentially duplicated the "Work and a Family" thread, and this one has become a bit of a deceased equine, please get in closing arguments...

 

[Lincsong]

This is way off the original poster's topic of lost intimacy in modern marriages and how that relates to the same situation in the Golden era. Since we've essentially duplicated the "Work and a Family" thread, and this one has become a bit of a deceased equine, please get in closing arguments...

Wow? Lost intimacy? Talk about getting off topic.

I'm glad that many couples are keeping each other informed about the house finances. I still can't get over the number of "golden agers" in my parents neighborhood who when one spouse died, the surviving spouse was absolutely lost; "where's the money? my names not on the house? etc." In California and other community property states it's not as bad to do something that foolish, but in the other states where things are separate, I could see some real problems.

 

[Mrs. MK]

I think the "stay at home" mom is vital...when there are children in the house. Aren't they our best investment..in the future, and your happiness? I have seen FAR too many homes, broken homes, where the parents are more into their things ..than the kids.

Once a husband complained that his stay at home wife didn't "do anything" and he was tired of always going to work, weekend chores..blah blah blah.

He comes home from work one day, and the house is a wreck! Beds unmaid, no dinner, laundry piled up, toys all over the floor, the sink full of dishes...

Husband yells "WHAT HAPPENED"?

She says "Honey, all the things you say I never do, well today I didn't do them":eusa_clap

This joke is my favorite of all time. I too am a stay-at-home mom. I spent 14 years in the work force, starting out as a secretary/typist and ending as the associate editor of a wonderful magazine. I stopped working when we had our daughter. At first it was easy because she took so many naps. But as she became more mobile, it became harder. It was much harder than any job I had imagined. I began to feel as though I had lost who I was and wished for just a little time to myself. This continued until our son was born and then got worse! My point is this - it takes a lot more personal sacrifice, strength and determination to try to be a good mom and stay home with the kids than it does to go to a job. On the other hand, I can't imagine how difficult it must be for women who must work and then are expected to do all the "mom" things when they come home. One good thing about the break in my career is that I have a chance to start over. I can follow my passion with more schooling and a different path once the kids are in school.

 

[Sachet]

I can offer a couple of perspectives from personal experience.

When I was twenty I worked as a nanny for an affluent family in the suburbs of Chicago. He was in finance and she was an ER physician. While they were at work I ran their household and raised their adorable son from the time he was 4 months old until he turned 18 months. I was there for all the milestones that are so precious and irreplaceable at the instant they occur....the wonder of his first step, being called "Mama" (and having to teach him otherwise), etc. I was in heaven and loved every moment of a job that certainly didn't feel like one. His parents adored him and ensured that he was raised with love and attention in his own home. Knowing how his mother felt compelled to make a difference in the world by being a doctor, and the reality being that she did indeed save lives on a daily basis, I completely understood their choice to have a private nanny as their compromise.

Flash forward six years when I am working full-time in the medical field, while attending college at night. When I became pregnant (after years of trying and thinking it wasn't going to happen) I worked until the day I gave birth to our precious daughter. Even though I didn't want to, I *thought* that I had no choice, but to go back to work. And I did. I also cried the entire way to work from the daycare center and decided that I didn't care what sacrifices had to be made, there was no way I was going to continue leaving her in the hands of someone else everyday. Numerous sacrifices were made that many other family members (with two working couples who had two cars, bigger homes and vacations to Hawaii, etc.) did not understand. My husband was wonderfully supportive and we made it work. Our son was born three years later. Not once have I ever felt "beholden" to my husband. It never even occurred to me. The few times that I was sick or out of town and he was left in charge of running the household and caring for our two children, he was frazzled (to say the least ) by the time I was able to return to my various roles that jamespowers pointed out with such sensitivity and understanding.

I've homeschooled both children and my daughter is finishing up her Freshman year at college this year. My 16 year son will be attending a local college next year to participate in the Dual Enrollment program that many states offer to all public, private and homeschooled students. He'll receive three college credits per one high school credit and be able to transfer the college credits. It's a great way for kids to become acclimated to the college atmosphere while still at home with parental support and encouragement.

As a result of my son's emerging independence now I find that I feel the desire to return to the workforce. I interviewed this week for a position as a tutor for children with autism. It was extremely disconcerting to try and convey, in a professional and comprehensive manner, all of the skills and abilities that I have utilized in caring for my family over the years. The gap in my resume is not viewed in a positive light in the professional world. Fortunately, for this position, my homeschooling experience is seen as a bonus. Otherwise, it would be very challenging and that is frustrating. My family knows and respects what I have accomplished throughout the years in devoting my time to them, but the outside world often times diminishes the endeavors that many find to be worthwhile and admirable.

I have close friends who made entirely different choices and they made it work for their families, too. As Lincsong said "I've always believed that it is up to each couple to decide their comfort level." Naturally, that's going to differ from family to family based on so many things: childhood memories of growing up a certain way (be they positive or negative), career goals, educational preferences, budgetary constraints or freedoms....the list is endless.

JustJen said that "it's a privilege to be a stay-at-home mom", and I agree whole heartedly. It's one that I have never taken for granted. I also don't judge my friends who work outside the home, because I trust in their judgment for doing what they think is best for their family.

 

[scotrace]

Makes one think

Excellent points Sachet, thanks.

One can spend years doing meaningful, hard work, proving an excellent work ethic, only to find that translating those skills and ethics into the sometimes goofy language of the job interview is a challange.

 

[Pilgrim]

{A-hem...stepping up on soapbox....}

I don't assign any negative qualities to either women or men who stay home and support the family. It's their call, their choice, and I wish them the best.

My wife has a Master's degree, is at least as capable (if not more so) than I am, and she has no desire to stay at home. I don't either. Together (her Master's and my Ph.D.) we have about 24 years of our lives invested in college degrees, and we're both using those degrees to advantage in our work.

My wife's talents as an administrator earn us more then $70K a year, which makes a huge difference to our home setting, options and lifestyle. Neither she nor I have any interest in giving up that income. We have two great daughters who are just finishing high school, and there is no evidence thay have suffered by having two working parents. They're great, well-adjusted kids. We also have no nanny, just busy lives.

My kids have been in public schools all their lives, and they've done well, learned lots, have no problems, and are top academic performers. I'm FAR from convinced there is anything substantial wrong with public schools. I think public schools are a success in most areas and are the real strength of America, and I wish that conservatives and liberals both would get off their backs and stop imposing agendas (and standardized testing, which I think is 90% meaningless) on the schools. My suspicion is that most home schooling is done for political or religious reasons, both of which are none of my business...so I do my best not to worry about it. (This is NOT intended as a critical comment, just an opinion, and I've been both right and wrong before.)

Based partly on the above, I won't critize anyone for staying home and/or home schooling their kids, but neither am I receptive to comments from others about the shortcomings they perceive in the path my wife and I have chosen. Further, I have no interst in - or patience with - being proselytized by those who think their path is The Right And Only One.

I appreciate the respectful and thoughtful tone on this forum, and the recognition that people have different beliefs and approaches to life. This is just a capsule view of my family's take on it.

Whew....

Deponent yieldeth soapbox at this time.

 

[jamespowers]

My kids have been in public schools all their lives, and they've done well, learned lots, have no problems, and are top academic performers. I'm FAR from convinced there is anything substantial wrong with public schools. I think public schools are a success in most areas and are the real strength of America, and I wish that conservatives and liberals both would get off their backs and stop imposing agendas (and standardized testing, which I think is 90% meaningless) on the schools. My suspicion is that most home schooling is done for political or religious reasons, both of which are none of my business...so I do my best not to worry about it. (This is NOT intended as a critical comment, just an opinion, and I've been both right and wrong before.)

Come out here man. I'll take you on the Tour of Academic Shame.
Thank God you have a decent school system where you are. That isn't the case everywhere. :cheers1:

Regards to all,

J

 

[John in Covina]

College and life.

{My wife has a Master's degree, is at least as capable (if not more so) than I am, and she has no desire to stay at home. I don't either. Together (her Master's and my Ph.D.) we have about 24 years of our lives invested in college degrees, and we're both using those degrees to advantage in our work.

Standardized testing, which I think is 90% meaningless

Quick question: did either your wife or you use / take the SAT's or the other College tests to get into college to get the degrees? I was just wondering if those are meaningless, too. Is any testing necesary? How do you track improvement or competence. Does this apply to Surgeons?

Sometimes I think most college degrees are meaningless, since I have seen more well run companies get totally screwed up by people that have degrees as opposed to life experience.

I know more people that are working in areas that are COMPLETELY unrelated to what they majored in, in college

 

[ArrowCollarMan]

Oh my god I hate the stadardized testing! Most of you seem to be old enough to never have been through it. Its not really hard...its just pointless and annoying. They make it harder and harder to get along in life it seems. In order to get any decent job one must go through college and even then it seems if you get married and support a family both husband and wife must work. It seems like you can't own a home and work in a place like a factory anymore. Arrg, what happened?

 

[Pilgrim]

Quick question: did either your wife or you use / take the SAT's or the other College tests to get into college to get the degrees? I was just wondering if those are meaningless, too. Is any testing necesary? How do you track improvement or competence. Does this apply to Surgeons?

Sometimes I think most college degrees are meaningless, since I have seen more well run companies get totally screwed up by people that have degrees as opposed to life experience.

I know more people that are working in areas that are COMPLETELY unrelated to what they majored in, in college

John asks good questions! Bear with me and I'll note this is: fftopic:

There are tests for graduate admissions - SAT is relevant to undergrad admissions. In 1987 (14 years after I coompleted my B.A.) I just walked in and took the GRE - Graduate Record Exam. Didn't study for it, just took it - passed with flying colors. It's not that tough.

However, do I think that standardized exams are relevant for GRADUATE admissions? Partly, but not as an exclusive measure of potential. Maybe if the student is shiny new from his/her undergrad degree they make sense. But if the student has been out in the world for 10+ years, their life and job experience is more relevant than standardized testing, and a better predictor of success in a graduate program. I've seen lots of motivated adults with marginal GRE scores sail through graduate degrees...because they're goal-driven and know how to work at their studies.

My beef with standardized testing is that in many cases, we don't know what the tests measure. Just because we test doesn't mean we're testing for anything meaningful. The ACT and SAT exams actually are among the best.

It's the standardized tests in various states that I think are worthless. Do you know who creates them? I don't. That automatically makes them suspect to me. Their effect is more political than functional, serving that political boondoggle called No Child Left Behind...or before NCLB, the agendas of the legislatures in states which had their own testing. The test effect is to penalize school districts with weak test results; rather than providing more resources and better teachers to low-achieving schools, those schools are penalized, lose resources, and predictably continue to go downhill. (I can also tell you a bit about the training NCLB requires teachers to have in order to be "highly qualified" - 24 credits per specialty, which is almost enough for a master's degree. Graduate study probably costs them $300-$400 per credit. What genius on Bush's staff decided that you need 24 graduate credits of study to be "highly quqalified" in teaching History?...and 24 more to teach Science....and 24 more to teach Math? How many K-12 teachers can afford to meet those arbitrary standards to become "highly qualified" at $7,000 to $10,000 per specialization?)

You know the saying "figures don't lie, but liars figure"? The same can be said for tests - except tests themselves lie, if they don't actually measure the things they claim to measure.

Most people now change careers at least five times, so degrees seldom connect directly to their career late in life. But they show you can learn, and they give you a starting point and show that you're trained to think a bit. So there is virtu e to them.

Medical stuff like surgery falls into more than one domain of learning, so it's more complex, but no, I don't want my surgeon to have a Ph.D. in fine art. I agree with your implicit assumption that he/she needs hands-on training. But do you want to trust a standardized test to show sugrical competency? I don't.

And JP - I know there are public school districts that are unsuccessful. I'm just not convinced that most of the school districts in the US fit that category. There are plenty of places where public schools are doing a good job.

ArrowCollarMan, I think the answer is that the US is exporting manufacturing jobs (something many see as a danger sign) and retaining knowledge and service-based jobs. Of the two, the knowledge-based jobs pay better, but they also require more education. It's no lie that a college education (no matter what age you are) is the best investment you can make in your earning power.

I hope that's reasonably responsive...dinner's ready, gotta go.

 

[Lena_Horne]

I guess something that I'm wondering, as someone who plans to become a housewife is, does the back and forth of a two-career household affect your personal life at all? As the article stated there seems to be a great deal of marriages that aren't satisfied and/or are too tired to have relations even if they wanted to because they are stretched so thin. Is this some kind of bogus myth or is there some mettle behind the rantings?

L_H

 

[Pilgrim]

I think that talking with each other and being very honest about your personal goals and desires is important.

Some marriages would be stressed by the wife staying at home - others would be stressed by the wife working. It depends on the goals and wishes of the people involved. When a husband and wife both mave invested years of time in pursuing education or job skills, it's less likely that one or the other parent will want tos tay home. That's not to say impossible, just much less likely. Other factors are income and lifestyle goals; some of them require two incomes, others do not.

Does it affect your personal life at all? Sure it does, and any decision you make - work outside the home or not - will have a major impact on your personal life. My wife and I have a solid personal relationship partly because we both work. I respect the work she does, and she respects mine. We use each other as sounding boards. Frankly, I think this works better than if she were a full-time homemaker and I was working - she wouldn't relate as well to what I do, and I would probably not understand her situation as well as I do. I think we have a better personal life because we're colleagues at the university and have both personal and professional lives to manage. But that's the kind of people we are. If what she wanted to do was stay home, I'd support that - but that has never been her interest, and I knew it when I married her.

If both partners are career-oriented, then today's world allows you to pursue that, have a family and succeed at both. Yes, you have to work at it, and there will be nights when you just turn over and go to sleep - but that's not all nights. You can still make time for each other.

My answer is that the best answer depends on the people involved. They should talk about their career and family goals - and if those change, don't hide it, get them out in the open and work it out.

 

[Mrs. MK]

.

My wife stays at home with our little girl that is about to turn 2 in May. She is a gourmet chef, a banker, seamstress, counselor, master gardener, strategic planner, master organizer, in addition to being the mother of our child. Stay at home moms are the hardest working unpaid people around, and they have my utmost respect.

My wife works harder in one day than I do all week.

Not only do we multi-specialists have to do all these things, but we do them while being a full-time care-giver for people who do unreasonable and unexpected things - like run out in the front yard with no clothing, or scream at the top of their lungs in the store when they can't have the toy of their choice, etc. I have read some things about full-time caregivers for adults, about how they burn out. But do people acknowledge moms who are burned out, and is that even allowed? The cooking, cleaning, transportation, purchasing, doctoring, etc. is all the easy stuff! Reasoning with a three-year-old...that's another story.
Sincerely,
Mrs. MK

 

[mysterygal]

There is no reasoning with a three year old! there is a lot you find out after the baby comes and you wonder, this wasn't in the pamplet! I believe the work is more mentaly exhausting than physically ...nap times are good for both kid and mom

 

[mysterygal]

burned out? I thought what we did all day was sit on the couch watching soap operas and eating bon bons

 

[Mrs. MK]

.

How do the stay at home mothers feel about being beholden to the man for EVERYthing that costs money? (personally i would hate to rely on someone else for all my material needs.) And does it cause friction when she wishes to treat herself with HIS hard earned money? I imagine it could with a more money-obsessed man ...just wondrin' - bk

Dear BK,

I don't at all feel bad because my husband and I are a team. We each have a role, neither one is more or less important. I may depend on him for everything that costs money, but we don't have the attitude that everything is his. He is also dependent on me - caring for our children, maintaining our home, keeping track of OUR bills and finances, making sure he has clean clothes to wear to work. Some couples split the duties differently, but that is just how it works for us. An attitude of teamwork is the key, in my opinion.

Sincerely, Mrs. MK

 

[John in Covina]

3 year olds!

I just envision a device for mothers where it is a mix of a taser stun gun and one of the anti bark electronic collars but like a parachute harness and mom has the remote set on stun.

Parents time to get your hellion a Small Child Electronic Compliance Harness with eight great settings! Set on stun for most indoor times. Instant nap time, and I give you something to cry about are 3 of the favorite settings.