The general decline in standards today

[C-dot]

I totally agree. One of the key physical differences between men and women is upper body strength. I would think that such a difference might be very critical if one of your squaddies who might be 6'2" and 300 lbs is hit in a firefight and somebody has to carry or drag him to safety. Or even in civilian life when a firefighter (who, like the soldier, is also loaded down with gear) has to carry an injured or unconscious person out of a burning building. And as C-dot has pointed out, people come in all shapes and sizes.

Very true, and that isn't discrimination or denial of equal opportunity, it's common sense. My naval officer boyfriend once laughed at the thought of me enlisting in the military, not only because of how I look, but for my sheer lack of physical strength. If I wanted to, I could weight train and do my basic and become a fully fledged member, but if 5'4" and 115lb me had to carry my 6'0" and 200lb fellow soldier off the battlefield... Well, no matter how much I worked out, it probably wouldn't happen.

 

[Pompidou]

Very true, and that isn't discrimination or denial of equal opportunity, it's common sense. My naval officer boyfriend once laughed at the thought of me enlisting in the military, not only because of how I look, but for my sheer lack of physical strength. If I wanted to, I could weight train and do my basic and become a fully fledged member, but if 5'4" and 115lb me had to carry my 6'0" and 200lb fellow soldier off the battlefield... Well, no matter how much I worked out, it probably wouldn't happen.

The right thing to do would be to set the requirements for a soldier's weight lifting capacity to whatever is necessary, and pass only those who could meet it. You see, it's not your gender that would be holding you back. Why, I bet you're one of millions of women who could beat me in an arm wrestling match. I couldn't make the cut as a soldier either. The problem comes when women strong enough to do everything are passed up, while men strong enough to kinda squeak by get a free pass. If you're not tough enough - no worries, neither am I. If you are, it shouldn't be an arbitrary regulation holding you back.

 

[HoosierDaddy]

It's not that I can't take care of myself, but it's nice to know I don't have to. I lived for 6 years without a husband (divorced and remarried) and I was fine and I would be fine again tomorrow without one if it happens, but it was a relief not to have to deal with everything that a man normally does. I'm a relic, because I believe in gender roles [huh]

Of course..and what comes with that belief (at least in my case)is deep appreciation. I enjoy a woman for what she is. The feminiity..the patience...the unique strength..the backup...the soft touch...the emotion...rather than a tough hardcore wrestling match to ultimately break all that down for independency. Not so much the fear of losing that kind of relationship...it is more like regretting those missing values of such a great loss. In my view we need to be different. A certain equality comes from those differences. Perhaps not complete equality in all things...yet a natural structure to compliment each other's such important gender qualities whether they were randomly placed in that order..or planned from certain wisdom and caring. I would rather think it was a plan...and a good one. We both would probably fight to preserve that...but please..let me go first.

 

[HoosierDaddy]

Thanks, and here I thought you didn't like me by all that other mean stuff you said.

It's called tough love..my friend..

 

[PoohBang]

It's called tough love..my friend..

let's not get too carried away with that term.

 

[rue]

Of course..and what comes with that belief (at least in my case)is deep appreciation. I enjoy a woman for what she is. The feminiity..the patience...the unique strength..the backup...the soft touch...the emotion...rather than a tough hardcore wrestling match to ultimately break all that down for independency. Not so much the fear of losing that kind of relationship...it is more like regretting those missing values of such a great loss. In my view we need to be different. A certain equality comes from those differences. Perhaps not complete equality in all things...yet a natural structure to compliment each other's such important gender qualities whether they were randomly placed in that order..or planned from certain wisdom and caring. I would rather think it was a plan...and a good one. We both would probably fight to preserve that...but please..let me go first.

Well said... and yes, you go first

 

[Pompidou]

Of course..and what comes with that belief (at least in my case)is deep appreciation. I enjoy a woman for what she is. The feminiity..the patience...the unique strength..the backup...the soft touch...the emotion...rather than a tough hardcore wrestling match to ultimately break all that down for independency. Not so much the fear of losing that kind of relationship...it is more like regretting those missing values of such a great loss. In my view we need to be different. A certain equality comes from those differences. Perhaps not complete equality in all things...yet a natural structure to compliment each other's such important gender qualities whether they were randomly placed in that order..or planned from certain wisdom and caring. I would rather think it was a plan...and a good one. We both would probably fight to preserve that...but please..let me go first.

To your benefit, if you find such a woman when she's got the option to be otherwise, you know you've got the real deal. It'd almost certainly be a superior experience to coming across a woman who is what you wish because it's all she's allowed to be. Kinda like I was telling Tom, when he was talking along the same lines. I tend to shoot for the more feminine women myself, so I know what you mean. I like knowing that whoever I'm with is being herself. Back in the day, if you wanted a housewife, well, that was probably pretty easy to arrange, but how happy she was to be a housewife would be anyone's guess. It's not like the world was her playground. Nowadays, if you want the same thing, and I actually prefer the career types, but regardless, it's harder to find, because they're not all constrained into one role, but if you find one, you'll be rewarded for your extra time with more enthusiasm. She'll be what you want because she wants to be, not because she has to be.

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

Very true, and that isn't discrimination or denial of equal opportunity, it's common sense. My naval officer boyfriend once laughed at the thought of me enlisting in the military, not only because of how I look, but for my sheer lack of physical strength. If I wanted to, I could weight train and do my basic and become a fully fledged member, but if 5'4" and 115lb me had to carry my 6'0" and 200lb fellow soldier off the battlefield... Well, no matter how much I worked out, it probably wouldn't happen.

No doubt you would have made CADPATs* quite stylish.

*CAnadian Disruptive PATtern uniform

 

[scottyrocks]

Many years ago I was talking with a friend who was in training to be a fireman. He told me that the department was considering changing at least one of the tests so that woman applying would have a better chance of making it. The particular standard we were discussing was carrying a dummy of specific weight down a certain number of flights of stairs. The standard weight had been 200 lbs. For women, the weight was going to be reduced to 150 lbs.

So my question was, what if I was a 200 lb. unconscious man who needed to be carried down that number of flights of stairs? What if the only firefighter available to do this was a woman? Would I suddenly have to shed 50 lbs.? Would she dismember me so she could get me down the stairs?

Of course I'm being facetious. My point, though, is that I believe in equality for all as long as the job can be done as intended. No quotas, either gender, race, or sexual orientation. You just have to be able to get the job done to the standards set for everyone, and that is without lowering it for the benefit of the 'lowest common denominator.'

 

[Pompidou]

Many years ago I was talking with a friend who was in training to be a fireman. He told me that the department was considering changing at least one of the tests so that woman applying would have a better chance of making it. The particular standard we were discussing was carrying a dummy of specific weight down a certain number of flights of stairs. The standard weight had been 200 lbs. For women, the weight was going to be reduced to 150 lbs.

So my question was, what if I was a 200 lb. unconscious man who needed to be carried down that number of flights of stairs? What if the only firefighter available to do this was a woman? Would I suddenly have to shed 50 lbs.? Would she dismember me so she could get me down the stairs?

Of course I'm being facetious. My point, though, is that I believe in equality for all as long as the job can be done as intended. No quotas, either gender, race, or sexual orientation. You just have to be able to get the job done to the standards set for everyone, and that is without lowering it for the benefit of the 'lowest common denominator.'

Exactly. Lowering standards for the sake of a quota is foolish. Shooing qualified people away for the sake of tradition is too.

 

[ButteMT61]

My daughter, then 20, went through the Fire Academy here in LA in 2005. She is a incredibly fit 5", 125 lb young woman. She made it through, when ~30 of the "men" dropped out. In the end, she got hooked on the medical side of things and is now in med school. But, even without that diversion, she had decided that it was too much for most gals, her in particular when compared to the large men there. She simply realized she couldn't do what they could - even though she DID do everything they did in the Academy. Good for her I say.
And now she's engaged to a guy my size (6'-4", 230 lbs) but this guy is an amazing specimen. He's also one step away from being a firefighter and paramedic. THAT is the firefighter I want if my leg is broken and I'm trapped in a fire. But, ironically, his first save last month was a small, grey puppy hiding under a bed in a burning house

 

[C-dot]

The right thing to do would be to set the requirements for a soldier's weight lifting capacity to whatever is necessary, and pass only those who could meet it. You see, it's not your gender that would be holding you back. Why, I bet you're one of millions of women who could beat me in an arm wrestling match. I couldn't make the cut as a soldier either. The problem comes when women strong enough to do everything are passed up, while men strong enough to kinda squeak by get a free pass. If you're not tough enough - no worries, neither am I. If you are, it shouldn't be an arbitrary regulation holding you back.

I believe you just hit the nail on the head, then hammered it into place Well written.

No doubt you would have made CADPATs* quite stylish.

Thanks for the vote of confidence, V.C lol The switch from stilettos to combat boots would be a tad too much for me, though...

 

[hatophile]

My daughter, then 20, went through the Fire Academy here in LA in 2005. She is a incredibly fit 5", 125 lb young woman. She made it through, when ~30 of the "men" dropped out. In the end, she got hooked on the medical side of things and is now in med school. But, even without that diversion, she had decided that it was too much for most gals, her in particular when compared to the large men there. She simply realized she couldn't do what they could - even though she DID do everything they did in the Academy. Good for her I say.
And now she's engaged to a guy my size (6'-4", 230 lbs) but this guy is an amazing specimen. He's also one step away from being a firefighter and paramedic. THAT is the firefighter I want if my leg is broken and I'm trapped in a fire. But, ironically, his first save last month was a small, grey puppy hiding under a bed in a burning house

God Bless her. Unfortunately, she may find some fields in the medcial profession still very chauvinistic. My wife is a radiologist, and you would think that well educated gentlemen would be more open-minded and accepting of women in the field, but that is not necessarily the case. As more and more women enter the medical profession, these guys will be in the minority.

 

[ButteMT61]

God Bless her. Unfortunately, she may find some fields in the medcial profession still very chauvinistic. My wife is a radiologist, and you would think that well educated gentlemen would be more open-minded and accepting of women in the field, but that is not necessarily the case. As more and more women enter the medical profession, these guys will be in the minority.

Hope not, bu let me tell you - this one can take care of herself. And the best part is that she looks like a little Barbie - she ain't! Her class is mostly women, and it's USC, so I have hopes that she'll be fine. Plus, she's been working in the emergency room for years now with these guys. But yes, the world still isn't fair. Likely never will be...

 

[rue]

Hope not, bu let me tell you - this one can take care of herself. And the best part is that she looks like a little Barbie - she ain't! Her class is mostly women, and it's USC, so I have hopes that she'll be fine. Plus, she's been working in the emergency room for years now with these guys. But yes, the world still isn't fair. Likely never will be...

USC? My favorite school ..... Go Trojans!

 

[Tomasso]

USC? My favorite school ..... Go Trojans!

No declining standards there....shakeshead

 

[ButteMT61]

USC? My favorite school ..... Go Trojans!

Penn State here

 

[1961MJS]

Hi

I think that a large portion of the attitudes against some controversial subjects including women in combat and gay marriage is NOT the actual subject itself, but the way in which the US Federal Government usually executes such ideas.

Its much easier for the Government to use the term "equal opportunity" to mean that each company has to include (Numbers yanked from thin air as an example) 49% men, 51% women, 20% of the men and 25% of the women must be gay, 19% of the men and 23% of the women must be Afro-American, etc. It's much more difficult to prove and disprove in court that a company used reasonable entry criteria to end up with a bank that included 89% black hetero men and 11% Eskimo hetero women.

If you have set entry criteria for jobs, then it shouldn't matter what the religion / race / gender / marital status / ? of the eventual employee is.

Later

 

[sheeplady]

God Bless her. Unfortunately, she may find some fields in the medcial profession still very chauvinistic. My wife is a radiologist, and you would think that well educated gentlemen would be more open-minded and accepting of women in the field, but that is not necessarily the case. As more and more women enter the medical profession, these guys will be in the minority.

The sad thing I've come to realize is that many highly educated people are far more sexist than less educated people. I am still amazed by how many highly educated people who will outright say things that are obviously sexist.

The right thing to do would be to set the requirements for a soldier's weight lifting capacity to whatever is necessary, and pass only those who could meet it. You see, it's not your gender that would be holding you back. Why, I bet you're one of millions of women who could beat me in an arm wrestling match. I couldn't make the cut as a soldier either. The problem comes when women strong enough to do everything are passed up, while men strong enough to kinda squeak by get a free pass. If you're not tough enough - no worries, neither am I. If you are, it shouldn't be an arbitrary regulation holding you back.

Agreed totally. The reason why such standards are in place is for safety reasons and they shouldn't be lowered. Somebody shouldn't be denied if they meet the standards, just because of their biological sex. I've known women who could lift and carry 200 pounds down a flight of stairs and I've known men who couldn't. I'm pretty sure that anybody getting rescued isn't going to stop the rescuer and ask what sex that person is.

 

[rue]

No declining standards there....shakeshead