The general decline in standards today

[Viola]

Very true, and that isn't discrimination or denial of equal opportunity, it's common sense. My naval officer boyfriend once laughed at the thought of me enlisting in the military, not only because of how I look, but for my sheer lack of physical strength. If I wanted to, I could weight train and do my basic and become a fully fledged member, but if 5'4" and 115lb me had to carry my 6'0" and 200lb fellow soldier off the battlefield... Well, no matter how much I worked out, it probably wouldn't happen.

I don't have any problem with a strict performance standard that happens to leave most women out. Run this fast, lift this much, or you're out? That's totally cool by me. But there are women who CAN do that.

I don't have any problem with setting the standards as high as desired.

For what it's worth, 5'0" and within weight-standard (ha you caught me, I'm heavier than you) me, I could lift my 200 lb. brother before I enlisted, without any adrenalin or the threat of being shot at, either. I bet even now with my wrecked foot I could run like a bunny if I was under fire.

Basic training didn't LOWER my upper-body strength, that's for certain. And I wasn't the strongest or fastest or most well-roundedly athletic woman in my basic training division, nor close to.

As far as height, there were men shorter than you that I worked with. Is it different because they're men?

Do you want your Mom, or your Sister to be in a combat situation, being splattered by the guts, blood, brains of a fellow soldier, or that of an enemy troop? Would that be something you would welcome your Wife to have to go through? War and other extreme things that may happen in life, just do not relate to the "average" female having to be put through. Not that it is all hunky dory for a Man to have to go through it, but as a race, a human race, there will be and has been wars. No matter what, there is going to be someone sent to the battle field. Do I think some women can handle it? Yes. Do I want to see some women handle it? No. Do I think I am sexist for my views? No. Not at all. I do not think it is sexist to desire to spare a Woman from the horrors of war. I consider it a "humane" view point. As for a Woman being a fireman, emergency person, that is a far different situation.

It's not something I'd want anyone I love to be put through. My brother or my husband as much as my mother or my sister. (leaving aside the fact I know my mom can shoot and my husband can't...) Who would want that for their loved ones?

Historically, women have not been spared the horrors of war. They just often don't get to fight. That's not a position of protection.

There is no world wherein I can see my husband being better equipped to deal with a military lifestyle than I simply because he is a man and I am a woman. He doesn't have the mindset for it. He could barely stand the amount of interaction with the military he had for the short time that I was in. You're right, someone will always be sent to the battlefield. I think it should be whoever passes the tests and signs up to go.

 

[sheeplady]

Do you want your Mom, or your Sister to be in a combat situation, being splattered by the guts, blood, brains of a fellow soldier, or that of an enemy troop? Would that be something you would welcome your Wife to have to go through? War and other extreme things that may happen in life, just do not relate to the "average" female having to be put through. Not that it is all hunky dory for a Man to have to go through it, but as a race, a human race, there will be and has been wars. No matter what, there is going to be someone sent to the battle field. Do I think some women can handle it? Yes. Do I want to see some women handle it? No. Do I think I am sexist for my views? No. Not at all. I do not think it is sexist to desire to spare a Woman from the horrors of war. I consider it a "humane" view point. As for a Woman being a fireman, emergency person, that is a far different situation.

Well, I don't have a wife, because I'm a heterosexual female. I'm married to a man, and no, I wouldn't want to see him get "splattered" or have him "splattered." I'm pretty sure that everyone here who knows someone in the military, particularly one whom is overseas in a combat zone, doesn't want to see them get "splattered."

The fact that I have the same rights as a man as a citizen of the country should mean that I have the same obligations to preserve those rights and freedoms I enjoy. I love my country. Although I would probably never be selected into the military (physical reasons beyond pure strength make me ineligible for service currently), if I was asked to do so, I would give my life to defend my country. I expect no less of anyone in my family- my mother, father, or husband. I would expect my children (male or female) to do the same.

I also do not think that women (or men) who serve in the military are "average" people.

 

[hatophile]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grutter_v._Bollinger
This is a fairly recent MI case.
The other well-known case is Bakke from CA in the 70's
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bakke_case

 

[1961MJS]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grutter_v._Bollinger
This is a fairly recent MI case.
The other well-known case is Bakke from CA in the 70's
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bakke_case

Thanks Hatophile, good to have some actual data.

later

 

[TidiousTed]

Times have been worse my friends. Found here

 

[adouglasmhor]

That is true. I think in some degree of reality, society has to come to terms with what is fair to everyone. However, as badly as this may sound I have to say it.

Do you want your Mom, or your Sister to be in a combat situation, being splattered by the guts, blood, brains of a fellow soldier, or that of an enemy troop? Would that be something you would welcome your Wife to have to go through? War and other extreme things that may happen in life, just do not relate to the "average" female having to be put through. Not that it is all hunky dory for a Man to have to go through it, but as a race, a human race, there will be and has been wars. No matter what, there is going to be someone sent to the battle field. Do I think some women can handle it? Yes. Do I want to see some women handle it? No. Do I think I am sexist for my views? No. Not at all. I do not think it is sexist to desire to spare a Woman from the horrors of war. I consider it a "humane" view point. As for a Woman being a fireman, emergency person, that is a far different situation.

A dear friend of mine was an officer in the IDF and trained many women soldiers. They saw it as their duty to thier country. Before she joined the IDF she was a military nurse in the British forces and served with distinction in the Falklands fixing up injured soldiers.
Do you think her experience holding the hand of a young soldier dying of his wounds was worse than coming under fire herself?
Your attitude is gallant and noble but as adults I would honestly leave the choice to the individual concerned.

 

[C-dot]

I don't have any problem with a strict performance standard that happens to leave most women out. Run this fast, lift this much, or you're out? That's totally cool by me. But there are women who CAN do that. ... As far as height, there were men shorter than you that I worked with. Is it different because they're men?

I don't have any problem with the military setting the bar that high - as I said, its common sense. I didn't mean to say anyone under 5'4" couldn't do the job, I was just using it to illustrate a point. Someone of my particular stature, man or woman, just doesn't have the muscle mass to perform those duties. If I put on 20 pounds of it, then that would be a different story.

 

[fortworthgal]

The fact that I have the same rights as a man as a citizen of the country should mean that I have the same obligations to preserve those rights and freedoms I enjoy. I love my country. Although I would probably never be selected into the military (physical reasons beyond pure strength make me ineligible for service currently), if I was asked to do so, I would give my life to defend my country. I expect no less of anyone in my family- my mother, father, or husband. I would expect my children (male or female) to do the same.

I also do not think that women (or men) who serve in the military are "average" people.

I have largely stayed out of this particular conversation, but I agree 100% with this.

My personal opinion is that if women want equal rights with men, then they should be prepared to do equal work and make equal sacrifices. I see it as very cut & dried.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Agreed. As noted, this is far from being a modern-era-only debate -- the possibility of at least some women being drafted was being considered as early as 1945. Army nurses were at Normandy in 1944 -- if that's not a combat zone there's no such thing. Over 500 WACs received decorations for bravery in combat. Women *have* gone into battle, and always will. And if they needed a nearsighted, sciatica-backed, migraine-headed middle-aged woman, I'd gladly go if called.

 

[Tomasso]

just doesn't have the muscle mass to perform those duties. If I put on 20 pounds of it, then that would be a different story.

Well, get in the gym!!! Time's a wastin'.....

 

[C-dot]

Army nurses were at Normandy in 1944 -- if that's not a combat zone there's no such thing.

I think the medics and nurses of the military, past and present, have just as tough a job as active combat. After all, they are the ones who clean up the mess.

Well, get in the gym!!! Time's a wastin'.....

No foolin', in high school I took up weight training and there was a point where I could bench press 175 pounds. If I kept at it, I could probably hold my own as an infantier, but it takes a lot more than physical strength even to be prepared for that.

 

[Tomasso]

No foolin', in high school I took up weight training and there was a point where I could bench press 175 pounds. .

That's impressive! Just think, with hard work and some vitamins.........

 

[fortworthgal]

:eeek:

Agreed. As noted, this is far from being a modern-era-only debate -- the possibility of at least some women being drafted was being considered as early as 1945. Army nurses were at Normandy in 1944 -- if that's not a combat zone there's no such thing. Over 500 WACs received decorations for bravery in combat. Women *have* gone into battle, and always will. And if they needed a nearsighted, sciatica-backed, migraine-headed middle-aged woman, I'd gladly go if called.

Well said, Lizzie.

If anyone doubts that women have endured combat conditions, do some reading about the Army Nurses stationed at the Salerno beachhead during WWII. Terrible conditions and some Nurses lost their lives in very unpleasant fashion. Also, lest we forget the Army & Navy Nurses who were taken prisoner by the Japanese on Corregidor and spent years in prison camps, or the WASP pilots who lost their lives during WWII.

 

[TidiousTed]

Lotta Svärd was a Finnish voluntary auxiliary paramilitary organisation for women. During the Finnish Civil War it was associated with the Suojeluskunta. After the war Lotta Svärd was founded as a separate organisation on September 9, 1920. The name comes from a poem by Johan Ludvig Runeberg. Part of a large and famous book, The Tales of Ensign Stål, the poem described a fictional woman named Lotta Svärd. According to the poem, a Finnish soldier, private Svärd, went to fight in the Finnish War and took his wife, Lotta, along with him. Private Svärd was killed in battle, but his wife remained on the battlefield, taking care of wounded soldiers. The name was first brought up by Marshal Mannerheim in a speech given on May 16, 1918. The first known organisation to use the name Lotta Svärd was the Lotta Svärd of Riihimäki, founded on November 11, 1918.

Senior Sergeant Roza Shanina (born April 3, 1924) was a Soviet sniper during World War II, credited with 54 confirmed kills, including 12 snipers.

“The essence of my happiness is fighting for the happiness of others. It’s strange, why is it that in grammar, the word “happiness” can only be singular? That is counter to its meaning, after all. […] If it turns necessary to die for the common happiness, then I’m ready to.”

In a letter dated January 17, Shanina noted she might die soon because her battalion had lost 72 out of 78 people. Roza Shanina was killed in action January 28, 1945
------------------------------------------------------------------
Woman in combat is not a new thing in Europe, Several of the best snipers in the Soviet army during WWII was woman and so were their bomber and fighter pilots. In Norway we have had women in every part of the armed forces for years and so have several other countries in Europe.

 

[hatophile]

I believe women combat soldiers are common in Israel as well.

 

[TidiousTed]

I believe women combat soldiers are common in Israel as well.

They are

 

[ButteMT61]

Anyone who thinks women are not "as tough" as men are monkeys. Maybe not generally physically so, but mentally and emotionally often even tougher. Trust me, my wife has kept us going when I've been so down I could jump.
Women are tough. And to me, keep many families intact where us guys would fold.
Then, they look better in heels too

 

[LoveMyHats2]

Well, I don't have a wife, because I'm a heterosexual female. I'm married to a man, and no, I wouldn't want to see him get "splattered" or have him "splattered." I'm pretty sure that everyone here who knows someone in the military, particularly one whom is overseas in a combat zone, doesn't want to see them get "splattered."

The fact that I have the same rights as a man as a citizen of the country should mean that I have the same obligations to preserve those rights and freedoms I enjoy. I love my country. Although I would probably never be selected into the military (physical reasons beyond pure strength make me ineligible for service currently), if I was asked to do so, I would give my life to defend my country. I expect no less of anyone in my family- my mother, father, or husband. I would expect my children (male or female) to do the same.

I also do not think that women (or men) who serve in the military are "average" people.

I do understand what you and many others will post about this topic, and would hope that everyone would also allow that my position on this is just that, my take on it, and of course, that means that my opinion would not be a "policy" making one for the masses.

As far as combat goes, I have been in combat. No matter what, I will stand by my position on that issue and know that yes, there have been women serve and died on the battle field, and it is a part of world history as many posting here will have indicated, but again, I still stand by my opinion and take on the matter. I also do not wish to advocate a down play on any women that have served or will serve.

 

[LoveMyHats2]

They are

In Israel, everyone is required to serve in the military, and that training starts at a young age.

 

[AtomicEraTom]

Not to mention, that a lot of women are good shots. They are typically steadier than men, because they don't get the testosterone pumping when they're ready to fire. My mom is incredibly good with a firearm. It keeps Dad in line lol