The general decline in standards today

[mercuryfelt76]

Plus the 'other people' are often imigrants who are happy to do those crappy jobs.... Then people start whining about them coming over here and taking our jobs .... That'll be the jobs that you didn't want to do right??

Who says the people who complain about people taking the jobs are the same people who won't take the "crappy" jobs? I will do any work I can get if things are tough and I'll be annoyed if I can't get work because employers don't want to pay the going rate anymore. My uncle is a brick layer and cannot find work because no one wants to employ the "over expensive" Englishj wages when there are Polish migrants to exploit.

 

[djd]

Yes it must be tough in the trades like that. I meant no offence Mercuryfelt. I was thinking more of the minimum wage type stuff like fast food, hotels etc where the only ones doing the jobs seem to be eastern Europeans. For a while a lot of the train crews seemed to be eastern European and they were a breath of fresh air compared to their generally sullen british counterparts

 

[mercuryfelt76]

I took no offense, we can debate and your difference in opinion will not affect my ability to be friends with you. Debate is healthy and the suppression of debate is one of the causes of hostility in my opinion.

Personally I do feel that there is a decline in standards and yes many of us have a negative attitude towards teens just like every generation before. But just because people have always complained, it doesn't mean their complains aren't more valid.

We haven't managed to break out of the cycle of rebellion since the 60s. First rock and roll and then punk which specifically gave a middle finger to all authority to bring down the system. But what system are we trying to bring down? Authority? Do we really think living in caves is better?

I blame 2 world wars for the decline. Especially WWII. Look at the evidence: the 2 big 20th century youth rebellions were the 1930s and 1960s. Is it just a coincidence the these movements were "teenage" number of years after the wars when almost an entire generation of fathers were killed. By the time these fatherless children hit their teens they were so far removed from the previous generation that they rebelled and there was no passing-on of culture and values.

Look at what happened when we stopped dressing like our parents. Kids forms groups of either punks, goths, emos, ravers etc. They're all crying out for a culture to belong to! The decline in manners is not anyone's fault because children are innocent but their parents were once children too and therefore relinquishing from any responsibility. And the cycle continues.

 

[sheeplady]

The problem now is not so much the younger generation. The problem as I see it is that the older generation now has never 'grown up' in the sense of accepting responsiblity for anything.

I think we've got a winner. Unfortunately I don't see anything that's going to change this in the future, as many generations since have the same attitude. Push it off and don't accept responsibility- blame everybody else for why the kids are that way, the earth's dirty, and there are people who are hungry and homeless. Even if it means blaming others your same age or older. It all started before you, so why should you fix it?

As far as the trades discussion, only 30% of my high school graduating class in the late 1990s went to a 2 or 4 year college within ten years of graduation, many people in the top 20 of my graduating class didn't go to college. 70% went on to college, post-high school training for the trades, law enforcement, or military within 10 years. So I honestly can't see how "no one is doing the trades." Half of my graduating high school class was also involved in our county's half day tech and trade program (culinary, mechanic, electrician, etc.), although some people did go on to community college or 4 year programs in their area of study or to supplement it.

Given the fact that half my school was involved in our tech and trade program, I have to say that the trades were actively encouraged and a huge portion of my class went into the trades- as many as went to college, if not more so given the fact that I know some tradespeople who went to the local 2-year school (and therefore are counted as college goers).

Maybe the problem isn't that people aren't going into the trades, but that middle class kids aren't going into the trades. At least in the US, most school districts are set up to be little microcosms of similarity, and for most middle class kids, that is all they'll see.

 

[Pompidou]

Look at what happened when we stopped dressing like our parents. Kids forms groups of either punks, goths, emos, ravers etc. They're all crying out for a culture to belong to! The decline in manners is not anyone's fault because children are innocent but their parents were once children too and therefore relinquishing from any responsibility. And the cycle continues.

I'm not so sure they're crying out for a culture to belong to, as the modern world does still have a culture. They just have more choices available, and that's not a modern phenomenon. Consider the like yet opposite subcultures of the 1800s - Dandyism and Bohemianism - both devoted to slacking off more or less. In a lot of ways, they're the two bases of the modern hipster - the former relying on family wealth to devote 100% of his time to idleness, and the latter forsaking the fashion of the times in favor of deliberate poor appearance - both to make a statement. Both made a life out of relinquishing responsibility.

In regards to what countercultures rebel against, they rebel against the sins of the establishment, for just as the older generation has been complaining about the younger since time began, so have the youth been complaining about the older generation. Wasn't it Winston Churchill who said, "if you aren't liberal when you're young, you have no heart. If you're not conservative when you're old, you have no brain."? They rebel against things like oppression, imperialism, etc. Sometimes, the establishment is right. Sometimes, the opposition is right. Nothing's really black and white.

 

[djd]

I think the situation in the uk has been different as there has been a real push to get more and more kids into university to the point where it seems somewhat pointless as there aren't the graduate jobs there for them. While im all in favour of education for it's own sake, I'm not so convinced by the drive to have people doing supposedly vocation degree courses such as media studies when there aren't the jobs there. Part of the reasoning may have been to keep the 18-21 year olds off the unemployment stats... Anyhow the money has run out now and we're rapidly heading back to the days when only the rich are likely to be able to study subjects that don't more or less guarantee a big pay day at the end.

 

[juup]

One of the biggest problems is lack of parenting. And its not for a lack of wanting to be a good parent.

I grew up in the 80's and became a research sociologist (criminologist specifically) and the biggest issue is wages. Most parents, even in two parent homes, work 2 jobs just to "make ends meet." This takes them out of the childs life. I remember the term "latch key kid" in the '80's being derogatory. It was used for kids on "the wrong side of the tracks" who went home to a tv babysitter because mom and dad were working low wage jobs. Well in the intervening 30 years, all jobs have become low wage. Inflation and the cost of living increases average 5-15% a year, wages increase on avg 3% every 5 years. When 2 parents are working 4 jobs and still qualify for social programmes, there is a failure in the system. It is fundamentally broke.

Second, the Generations of GenX and GenY are sandwich generations, our parents are clinging tooth and nail to the jobs they should be retiring from b/c their retirements that they saved for years went bust with the recession and companies are passing us over for Millenials because they have "longevity." This will lead to bitter resentment on the part of the X/Yers. This gets picked up by the kids and turns toward hostlity.

There is no one cause. But the biggest cause is the lack of opportunities Most of the economy has been outsourced or is being held by under the tables because its cheaper, we're trying to live in an economy where our wages cant support us and those that can make requisite adjustments to help all individuals are engaged in a war of ideology and screwing everyone but the biggest doners. Know wonder standards have declined, theres no hope.

 

[LizzieMaine]

So what you're saying is that the world has been going to hell in a handbasket for over 2000 years now.

I wonder when it will get there....

As far as I'm concerned, it's already there.

Among other proofs, look around at the quality of major civil engineering projects over the last forty years or so. Cheap, slipshod, cutprice work that falls apart before the bonds are paid off. Go thru one of the Big Dig tunnels in Boston and who knows if one of those nice pre-cast concrete panels will fall off and crush you to a wafer?

The civilized world today is, essentially, still dependent on the physical infrastructure built up during the first two thirds of the twentieth century, and we've increasingly lost our ability to either maintain that infrastructure in a safe and efficient manner, or to replace it with similarly-well-engineered work. Think about that the next time you drive across a bridge made from cheap low-bid concrete or fall asleep in a fine new hotel room finished with cheap, toxic Chinese drywall.

My only consolation, personally, is that I won't live to see the end of this century. Bad enough I had to see it start.

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

The civilized world today is, essentially, still dependent on the physical infrastructure built up during the first two thirds of the twentieth century, and we've increasingly lost our ability to either maintain that infrastructure in a safe and efficient manner, or to replace it with similarly-well-engineered work

I think what you say speaks to another disturbing trend in that many people today go into certain professions, such as engineering for example, not because they have any real passion (or even aptitude) for the work but because they see it simply as a job that pays well.

The engineer of the past was very often someone who enjoyed tinkering around with things when they were growing up, whose hobbies were perhaps electronics or ham radio. But the engineer of today is more likely to be someone who happened to be good at math who entered the field at the suggestion of a guidance counselor.

 

[mercuryfelt76]

I'm not so sure they're crying out for a culture to belong to, as the modern world does still have a culture. They just have more choices available, and that's not a modern phenomenon. Consider the like yet opposite subcultures of the 1800s - Dandyism and Bohemianism - both devoted to slacking off more or less. In a lot of ways, they're the two bases of the modern hipster - the former relying on family wealth to devote 100% of his time to idleness, and the latter forsaking the fashion of the times in favor of deliberate poor appearance - both to make a statement. Both made a life out of relinquishing responsibility.

In regards to what countercultures rebel against, they rebel against the sins of the establishment, for just as the older generation has been complaining about the younger since time began, so have the youth been complaining about the older generation. Wasn't it Winston Churchill who said, "if you aren't liberal when you're young, you have no heart. If you're not conservative when you're old, you have no brain."? They rebel against things like oppression, imperialism, etc. Sometimes, the establishment is right. Sometimes, the opposition is right. Nothing's really black and white.

Fair point. However I now see I didn't word my argument well enough. What I meant was, even the so-called rebels actually conform to the uniform of their rebellion and I'm actually more of a rebel for wearing vintage clothes. Everyone conforms or needs to feel they belong. But too many people haven't given up tif idea that it's the rich people's fault that they don't have any money.

 

[Undertow]

Although I agree that this culture is declining, I say it is specifically because we're losing the ability to survive without modern technology and luxury. Certainly, this younger vs older argument has been raging since society understood "time" itself, but old and young would really get nailed if something as important as electricity were cut off.

Whereas our predecessors understood some basics on making ends meet, we're falling into oblivion when it comes to basic survival. I don't expect kids to know how to hammer out horseshoes or make meal out of corn for baking, but on the other hand what would happen if our ovens stopped working? Look at the folks in Japan who are scavenging wood from rubble to start fires so they can feed themselves - could Americans figure that out? You would think so, but if there's not an app for it, I'm not so sure.

On the other hand, there may not be anyone to pave the roads of the future, but someone has to man the automated alien defense system. And there may not be anyone that knows how to sew a simple button on to their blouse, but someone has to figure out a way to engineer a piston-powered 100Mw power station that fits in a corner of your back yard. We're a constantly shifting, growing, changing society. Some skills become less useful and necessarily drop off. It's a natural cultural evolutionary process.

Meanwhile, those of us on the Fedora Lounge, or elsewhere, have to be torch-bearers of the old ways in case catastrophe should strike.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Again I point to "Earth Abides," an allegorical story of what might have happened if civilization was wiped out by a plague in 1949. When the last carpenter on earth dies, the rest of the survivors are doomed to live in caves because none of them cared enough to learn the necessary skills to build things.

And no, we can't depend on futuristic robots to do all the future's dirty work. We all know how that would end up.

 

[Chas]

It's either been going to hell in a handbasket for 2,000 years, or people have been overreacting every generation for 2,000 years.

That's my point....

 

[Undertow]

lol, I love that picture LM!

I agree. I'm REALLY hoping this recession (depression?) is bringing folks around to self-sustainability. I'm hoping people learn how to fix things, mend things, make due, etc. I think kids should go through scouts, home ec., shop, and other useful classes.

I think anyone that owns a car should be made to change tires and oil before driving off the lot. I feel the same way about guns - I don't walk out of a store with a gun unless I know how to break it down and clean it. I think people should learn how to butcher their own meat and grow their own veggies. I think people should know how to clean things without dishwashers or laundry machines, or mend with needle and thread.

I think people should purposely turn off the electricity after dinner and force themselves to sit in candlelight (candles they made!) to enjoy each other's company. I think people should wait to turn on the AC until it hits 100 and just put up with fans until then. I think people should do without boxed food altogether and learn to cook with raw ingredients.

I know its inconvenient and uncomfortable, but life isn't either of those things. If everything came crashing down, it's better to have your wits and feel at least somewhat in-control as opposed to losing your mind in the first 3 days.

 

[LizzieMaine]

I know its inconvenient and uncomfortable, but life isn't either of those things. If everything came crashing down, it's better to have your wits and feel at least somewhat in-control as opposed to losing your mind in the first 3 days.

The average modern 21st Century Civilization human is like a highly-bred show dog -- over-specialized to the point of being incapable of survival outside of a tightly-controlled environment. This is not constructive evolution.

 

[djd]

True, true. Survival of the fittest is a thing of the past

 

[Pompidou]

The average modern 21st Century Civilization human is like a highly-bred show dog -- over-specialized to the point of being incapable of survival outside of a tightly-controlled environment. This is not constructive evolution.

There are pros and cons to specialization. Really, there aren't any cons unless an asteroid destroys civilization or we have nuclear Armageddon. The folks who think that's likely are, fortunately, already well prepared. In the mean time, any time I'm not spending learning to gut a carcass and stitch the hide into boots, leggings and tunic, I can spend learning more immediately productive skills that, in all likelyhood, will be all I need in my lifetime. If the world ends, most movies imagine that it'll be the person with the most ammunition that lives well - not the boyscout that knows how to camp. It's fun speculation.

The benefits to our overspecialization are all the technological, scientific and medical advances we've made since people stopped trying to be jacks of all trades. I think evolution, and how constructive it is, needs to be measured against current challenges rather than possible challenges, since it's impossible to account for everything, and evolution works for the present anyway. We're pretty well adapted for a life of world socialization and fast improving, high tech and luxury.

 

[LizzieMaine]

When civilization crashes, the show dogs will be the first to go. The mutts, on the other hand, will flourish.

 

[Pompidou]

True - can't argue with that. The million dollar question is whether civilization will crash. I used to worry a lot as a kid - all the time. What if this happens? What if that? One thing my parents always said was, "An airplane could crash through our roof right now." Life is full of bad things that could happen. If I'm alive by the time I hit, "Post Quick Reply" then a million tragedies, by sheer chance, didn't happen, and I'm glad for it. The end of civilization, to me, is in the camp of things not worth worrying about - not without good cause.

 

[SGT Rocket]

True, true. Survival of the fittest is a thing of the past

This is true, but I for one am happy that *civilization* has done a lot to take care of the widowed, orphaned, and wounded of our society.