The general decline in standards today

[djd]

Yes you're right about that too. Speaking for myself yes, I have an inbuilt mistrust of teens now. I do think it's the norm (and probably always has been) for us to expect higher standards of behaviour from our children than maybe we actually displayed ourselves! Better that than not giving a damn what our kids do - this seems all too common sadly. Its far from easy being a patent and frankly many people just aren't up to it. In some respects I'm not - being a big kid myself much of the time

 

[scottyrocks]

Im gonna go out on a limb here and say that mass media has a huge impact on how kids learn to think. But thats not the limb.

The limb is a particular televison character in the U.S. that introduced kids to the idea that it was fun and cool and okay to be a smart-ass, and thats that 'whatchoo talkin' 'bout, Willis, kid on whatever sitcom he was on in the late '70s. The show, Diff'rent Strokes, did bring many important issues to the small screen, but it is my opinion that the producers who created that character started an avalanche of behavior patterns that altered what was 'acceptable' for kids. And it was marketed to a mass audience which is what made it so significant.

 

[Tatum]

Hubby and friends and myself were having a conversation about this today in the pool. We were questioning the general sense of entitlement that a lot of young people have today, and comparing us as kids and our friends' kids. Our godson is a senior in HS, and was recently canned from his first job after only three weeks, because he didn't know how (or was too lazy?) to properly sweep and mop floors. Needless to say, he has never had to do a chore in his life, and that is amazing to us.

As for general decline in behavior, Hubby was afraid his mom would beat the tar out of him (to her credit, he was an incredibly difficult child) and I was afraid I would have to go cut a switch off the tree out back. Now, neither happened very often, but the fear of such kept us in line. There was a very fine line between the adults and the kids. That seems to have blurred. I am glad that I grew up knowing that there would be consequences for my actions.

When I was vistiting Mom over the last few weeks, we were out shopping and a kid starting wailing in the store about something, and it went on for a bit... I turned to her with a grin and said, "You would have never allowed that, I would have been dragged out to the car and most likely spanked." She replied with, "That is not acceptable public behavior, but once you learned, you knew that. You were a very pleasant child once you knew what was expected of you."

Mom put the fear of god into me, and I love her for it.

 

[AtomicEraTom]

The modern culture, drug culture, and lack of parenting, and powerless teachers are the big issues, if you ask me.

Modern culture in general is just lousy, everyone is looking out for number one, which is fine to a point, but not to the point of being completely self-centered. The media shows that it's okay to be "16 and pregnant" or to be defiant to your parents, to the police, or any other authority you can think of. Not to mention the way that sex, alcohol, and illegal drugs are glorified as necessities to any good party.

Drugs are an issue nation-wide. I know a lot of people that used to smoke marijuana and luckily realized that it was making them into lazy, do-nothings, with no future. I know a lot of others that didn't realize it and now they're grown-adults, living in their parents basements, hanging out with their other hop-head buddies like they're still 17. Well this ain't "Cheech and Chong" and this ain't "That 70's Show" and the summer of love is long over so go out and get a dang job. I won't even get started on the perils of the other, harder drugs.

Many parents don't care anymore. They're too busy with their own social lives and the adult dating world to take care of their children. These kids don't need to do schoolwork, because their parents want nothing more than for the kids to stay occupied in front of the TV so they can go out. They have no chores, no responsibilities, nothing of any importance to do because nobody cares WHAT they do.

Teachers don't know what to do with kids because with no discipline at home, a simple call to Mom and Dad won't do the trick. They can't discipline them without someone from the PC Police yelling and blowing horns and getting everything blown out of proportion on the National News.

If things continue on this road, it will not end well for the Greatest country in the World.

 

[Puzzicato]

Im gonna go out on a limb here and say that mass media has a huge impact on how kids learn to think. But thats not the limb.

The limb is a particular televison character in the U.S. that introduced kids to the idea that it was fun and cool and okay to be a smart-ass, and thats that 'whatchoo talkin' 'bout, Willis, kid on whatever sitcom he was on in the late '70s. The show, Diff'rent Strokes, did bring many important issues to the small screen, but it is my opinion that the producers who created that character started an avalanche of behavior patterns that altered what was 'acceptable' for kids. And it was marketed to a mass audience which is what made it so significant.

That's quite a limb! I never looked at Diffrent Strokes that way before!

 

[LizzieMaine]

That's actually a very interesting point though --- there were smart-mouth kids in popular culture before, but they were usually teenagers. Small children with fresh mouths usually exercised them on each other, not on adults. The main exception -- and it's a big one -- were Hans und Fritz, the Katzenjammer Kids, who routinely abused all adults within range, and not just with words: they thought nothing of setting off a bomb under der Captain's chair, or setting der Inspector's overcoat on fire with him in it. Gary Coleman might have been a hellion, but I don't think he ever went that far.

(Another difference, of course, is that people in the days of the Katzenjammers knew the difference between the funny papers and reality.)

 

[Atticus Finch]

My father was always a keen observer of American culture. According to him, history will eventually record that two events began the decline of our society. The first is the invention of commercial television, which programs its content to attract the lowest common dominator (so as to maximize profits). And the second is the 1973 energy crisis. Before 1973, it was possible for families to realize the "American Dream" on one income. This allowed one parent to work and the other to take primary responsibility for properly raising the family's offspring. After 1973, most families had to send both parents off to work in order to maintain a pre-energy crisis lifestyle. This left the family offspring to be primarily raised by non-family social institutions…like schools, daycare centers and (commercial) television.

It has now been two (or three) American generations since Dad first came up with his theory. While I think he was guilty of oversimplification in many of his observations, I now despair that he may have been spot on with this particular idea.

AF

 

[W-D Forties]

My father was always a keen observer of American culture. According to him, history will eventually record that two events began the decline of our society. The first is the invention of commercial television, which programs its content to attract the lowest common dominator (so as to maximize profits). And the second is the 1973 energy crisis. Before 1973, it was possible for families to realize the "American Dream" on one income. This allowed one parent to work and the other to take primary responsibility for properly raising the family's offspring. After 1973, most families had to send both parents off to work in order to maintain a pre-energy crisis lifestyle. This left the family offspring to be primarily raised by non-family social institutions…like schools, daycare centers and (commercial) television.

It has now been two (or three) American generations since Dad first came up with his theory. While I think he was guilty of oversimplification in many of his observations, I now despair that he may have been spot on with this particular idea.

AF

I think your dad may have been spot on. I was watching something on tv set in the late 30s the other day and the household had a stay at home mother, a car and a domestic help - all on one salary! That seems quite bizarre now. I know people had less holidays and gadgets then, is that part of the reason people could afford for one parent not to work? Are people these days just accusomed to 'having it all'?

We have had to manage on one salary recently and all I can say is that, even without luxuries like holidays, it's bl**dy hard! I would love to be able to afford to saty at home to be there for my kids, but these day's that's a luxury. We don't have a large mortgage, we have an old car, not many gadgets and we are still struggling with me working.

Saying all that, my kids still know how to behave, regardless of if I am here at home full time or not.

 

[Gene]

I haven't given up on America. I think for the most part people are still the way they've always been, albeit far fewer, but still there are good people out there with good ol' American values, especially if you leave any of the major cities.

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

Also it was the increasing tax burden that forced many women out of the house and into the work force. Bear in mind that federal, state and local taxes combined takes away at least $2 out every $5 that the average American earns.

I was watching something on tv set in the late 30s the other day and the household had a stay at home mother, a car and a domestic help - all on one salary! That seems quite bizarre now. I know people had less holidays and gadgets then, is that part of the reason people could afford for one parent not to work? Are people these days just accusomed to 'having it all'?

I often wonder the same thing. Once upon a time, it seems, you could have been pushing a broom and were still able to afford a house and be the sole breadwinner which is in stark contrast to today when two college degrees combined can barely afford a house. And just what kind of house do you get? In my area -- despite the depressed housing market -- you still have to fork out half a million dollars for a dinky "townhouse" with a two-coffin sized living room that's jammed in, shoulder to shoulder, with a hundred other of these so-called townhouses. I once dreamed of having a walk-in closet. Now, for the money, the walk-in closet is all you get! Maybe I'm exaggerating a little but that's what it comes down to.

 

[djd]

On the tax issue it's at least as much in the uk (more when you factor in tax on purchases such as fuel and food). Yes its a lot BUT we expect so much from the state that those revenues have to come from somewhere. In the UK many people are content not to work but just take whatever state benefits they can get. There are families in my street with 4, 5 and 6 kids. These people would never be able to support this number of kids if they worked.... Crazy system

 

[LizzieMaine]

Keep in mind, though, that overall taxes were higher during the 1940s than at any other time in American history. There's a lot more to it than that.

I think if you want to talk economic causes, consider the evisceration of the working class. A great many of those jobs-that-enabled-single-income-homes were union-wage, manufacturing-sector jobs which no longer exist in our new globalized outsourced society. I know that the area where I live was absolutely gutted by these changes, leaving those of us who survived ultimately dependent on the crusts tossed our way by tourists and the "service economy." Even two wage earners in a household isn't enough anymore -- a working-class family needs two wage earners working two jobs each to survive now.

Without a healthy working class, you can't have a healthy society. And we haven't had a healthy working class for more than forty years.

 

[AtomicEraTom]

Thank you Lizzie, you always put things so well. It's sad, really. My dad got hired at Briggs and Stratton around 1980. In those days, a job at Briggs meant you were set for life. They ended up moving most of their operations overseas. My mom worked at the Wisconsin Cheeseman for 13 years, as a mechanic. Again, Cheeseman was a job for life. Everyone and their brother knew the place, they went under last year and now we've had an influx of Cheeseman employees, including Mom, come to where I work.

Now, I know how business works, I understand that workers work for peanuts overseas, but where's the American Pride? Made in USA used to mean something. Luckily, some of the nations that used to work for peanuts are asking more and you may see operations move back to the states, not to mention the positive publicity that would go along with it.

Not to long ago, Harley Davidson was talking of leaving Milwaukee, it killed their sales, so they dropped that plan. Or at least, they're keeping it hush-hush and on the back-burner.

 

[Atticus Finch]

Yes. I am always amazed at the number of otherwise intelligent people who fail to grasp the relationship between taxes and the government services they demand.

As a side note, North Carolina, like many states, is currently going through a period of government downsizing. Several people in my office, who have long railed against over taxation and wasteful big government, recently got their pink slips. As it turns out, they were the wasteful big government they had always complained of.

AF

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

Now, I know how business works, I understand that workers work for peanuts overseas, but where's the American Pride? Made in USA used to mean something. Luckily, some of the nations that used to work for peanuts are asking more and you may see operations move back to the states, not to mention the positive publicity that would go along with it.

Unfortunately, I'm not so sure about that. Because even if you could find American workers willing to work for less it still wouldn't be a viable option because American workers, regardless of how much they make, come with lots of paperwork attached. Anybody who runs a business -- even a one man operation like mine -- knows that paperwork (especially the government-mandated variety) can mean hours of nonproductive work which actually takes time away from the running of the business. That's why many large corporations have entire departments just for dealing with the red tape, a luxury that smaller businesses don't have.

 

[JimWagner]

I think your dad may have been spot on. I was watching something on tv set in the late 30s the other day and the household had a stay at home mother, a car and a domestic help - all on one salary!

Please don't take this personal because statements like that are pretty common on the FL and I'm responding to that particular phenomenon and not really to you.

Movies are NOT documentaries. Not then. Not now. In particular, movies from the depression era were escape fantasies designed to take people's minds off of the widespread hard times. Not as propaganda as much as who wants spend what little money they did have to go see a depressing movie showing how bad or hopeless things are? Inferring that the scene you described above was representative of the reality facing the average family of the time is just wrong.

Sure, TV has a lot of schlock on it. So do the movies today. So do all types of magazines and books. They are created to make money and not much else and pander to the lowest common denominators to do so. The problem is that too many people don't seem to be able to separate fantasy from reality and therefore what was fantasy is becoming reality as they act out.

Too many generations have now been badly influenced and seduced by the fantasies. Frankly, I believe it really started the day that someone invented fiction and people decided that the fiction was more desirable than the reality. Today's technologies just speed up the process and make it more widespread.

 

[sheeplady]

I think another major problem is the fact that in the US, there is so much focus on consumerism. A person can't have one nice thing, they need 15 different ones. Years ago, my husband and I decided that we would have US-made holidays, with a few exceptions (stuff from the EU and Canada being OK but not preferred). But we buy mostly US made gifts for each other. It takes work, I doubt most people are going to spend 5 or 6 hours trying to find and research a US producer for a single product.

I'm seriously getting concerned that if the US was involved in another major war where we needed to produce things and have production/design know-how, we'd be screwed. (Sorry for my language, but I feel really strongly about this). For instance, my city recently lost Syracuse China (a producer of restaurant china and household china) to overseas. During the 1940s, they designed and produced ceramic land mines. What are we going to do, in the middle of a war build factories from scratch? Retrain designers and engineers from the ground up?

 

[Atticus Finch]

I'm seriously getting concerned that if the US was involved in another major war where we needed to produce things and have production/design know-how, we'd be screwed.

Sadly, I think the next major war will be fairly short and most of the things we will need to fight it are already produced and waiting in their silos.

AF

 

[sheeplady]

Sadly, I think the next major war will be fairly short and most of the things we will need to fight it are already produced and waiting in their silos.

AF

I think you're right.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Inferring that the scene you described above was representative of the reality facing the average family of the time is just wrong.

There *were* families who lived that way, of course -- the seminal sociological study of middle-class life, "Middletown," published in the late 1920s, went so far as to *define* "middle class" as "having at least one servant." However, the vast, vast majority of Americans alive at that time were not middle class. America was primarily a working-class country until well after WW2, and by that time the whole concept of what constituted the middle class had changed. The UK class structure is more complicated, but I suspect the patterns were similar.