The Cavanagh Club

[Lefty]

That's the most interesting hat I've seen in a while. Very nice. :eusa_clap


Just for fun, I googled the Cavanagh motto (from dream [or possibility] to reality) and found this.

Massive Bronze Cavanagh Hat Logo,
early 20th c., an undulating streamer flanks either side of a shield carrying two lions rampant in combat above the Latin motto "A POSSE AD ESSE" (from being possible to being). An architectural embellishment, this bronze once graced a factory in Connecticut that supplied New York City's famous Cavanagh Hat store on Park Avenue. J. Garvan Cavanagh ran the celebrated business until becoming a Roman Catholic priest in 1961. Cavanagh Hats was a subsidiary of the Hat Corporation of America and would later become Dobbs Hat Co. 24" x 42.5" 142 pounds

 

[Brad Bowers]

I remember when that came up for auction. I had no money at the time.

The more I've learned, I actually think this bronze was either on the outside of the Cavanagh Park Avenue store, or inside. I suspect it wasn't from the factory at all.

You've got the literal translation of "A posse ad esse," but John Cavanagh always translated it as "A dream comes true." That's probably going to be the name of my Cavanagh book, BTW.lol

Brad

 

[Lefty]

Put me down for a copy - whenever that dream comes true.

 

[ScottF]

Whoa, that is the earliest Cavanagh I've seen.:eusa_clap

I've never seen the size stamped like that in the sweatband, and I haven't seen the reed cloth done that way either. Makes it look like lace or something.

The Cavanagh tip sticker is incredible, the detail is just phenomenal, and the "Made by the Cavanagh Process" takes my breath away. This derby was made with using the Cavanagh Edge process, with the edge cut off before trimming. It supposed to give strenth to the entire brim, regardless of whether the edge was kept.

I still don't understand the $10 price, but perhaps JP is right. On the other hand, this one does not have a liner, so that saves money right there, so maybe they did offer a low-priced model. My prices only go back to 1931.

If you're ever inclined to sell it, please think of me first.

Brad

Thanks Brad - I would certainly offer it to you first.

 

[Dreispitz]

Here are some pictures of mine for comparison:

 

[rlk]

That's the most interesting hat I've seen in a while. Very nice. :eusa_clap


Just for fun, I googled the Cavanagh motto (from dream [or possibility] to reality) and found this.

Massive Bronze Cavanagh Hat Logo,
early 20th c., an undulating streamer flanks either side of a shield carrying two lions rampant in combat above the Latin motto "A POSSE AD ESSE" (from being possible to being). An architectural embellishment, this bronze once graced a factory in Connecticut that supplied New York City's famous Cavanagh Hat store on Park Avenue. J. Garvan Cavanagh ran the celebrated business until becoming a Roman Catholic priest in 1961. Cavanagh Hats was a subsidiary of the Hat Corporation of America and would later become Dobbs Hat Co. 24" x 42.5" 142 pounds

Is that the sculpture in this 1946 ad?

 

[Brad Bowers]

Possibly. That ad is the only outside view of the store I've run across. Photos are out there, and I'll find them eventually.

Is that from GoogleMaps Streetview? It looks kind of like the same building, but I've got an article that says Cavanagh moved to 57th in 1964, because their building was torn down earlier that year. The number on the building doesn't look like it reads 247.

Brad

 

[rlk]

Possibly. That ad is the only outside view of the store I've run across. Photos are out there, and I'll find them eventually.

Is that from GoogleMaps Streetview? It looks kind of like the same building, but I've got an article that says Cavanagh moved to 57th in 1964, because their building was torn down earlier that year. The number on the building doesn't look like it reads 247.

Brad

Its actually from the company that did some of the work on the Audi showroom. That is the corner of 47th St and Park Avenue and sure looks the same. The address is 250 so it must be on the opposite side of the street perhaps originally built at the same time. 247 does appear to be an ugly early 60's office building. I haven't located vintage photos either.

 

[Brad Bowers]

I did a little more digging, and the 44-story building shown there (245 Park Avenue) is listed as being built in 1967. The 247 Park Avenue address shows that the older 20-story building was demolished in 1963, which just about matches the 1964 date I have. So, either they reused the facade of the building, instead of a complete demolition, or they modeled the lower part of the new building after what was there before. I don't know the full situation on urban renewal in NYC at that time, but what I do know isn't pretty.

Interesting that both of the flagship stores for Cavanagh and C&K/Dobbs suffered the same fate. The famed C&K store at 620 Fifth Avenue was torn down in 1928, replaced by the British Empire Building at Rockefeller Center in the 1930s.

Brad

 

[rlk]

I did a little more digging, and the 44-story building shown there (245 Park Avenue) is listed as being built in 1967. The 247 Park Avenue address shows that the older 20-story building was demolished in 1963, which just about matches the 1964 date I have. So, either they reused the facade of the building, instead of a complete demolition, or they modeled the lower part of the new building after what was there before. I don't know the full situation on urban renewal in NYC at that time, but what I do know isn't pretty.

Brad

They must have had photos of the old Cavanagh Showroom. Here's the story for the Audi Forum at 250 Park Ave new in 2006.
http://www.ramseycorp.com/news_item.htm?itemId=1&bhcp=1

 

[Brad Bowers]

They must have had photos of the old Cavanagh Showroom. Here's the story for the Audi Forum at 250 Park Ave new in 2006.
http://www.ramseycorp.com/news_item.htm?itemId=1&bhcp=1

I'll bet they were both designed by the same architect and built around the same time. They seem too similar to be a coincidence.

Here's a photo of the whole building. Since it's copyrighted, I don't want to save it and link to it, so I'll just give the original URL. Seems like an original building, just updated.

Brad

 

[rlk]

I'll bet they were both designed by the same architect and built around the same time. They seem too similar to be a coincidence.

Here's a photo of the whole building. Since it's copyrighted, I don't want to save it and link to it, so I'll just give the original URL. Seems like an original building, just updated.

Brad

Interesting site, it was built in 1924, the same firm also built the Knapp Building in 1923 at 47th and Madison (demo 1999). Any association with C & K
for that location?...More research this was a Knapp Real Estate,un connected. 250 Park Avenue was 1924 Cross & Cross Postum Bldg.,247 Park Ave. was 1923 Park-Lexington Bldg by Warren and Wetmore architects of the neighboring Grand Central Terminal. I think I can dig up some photos now...

 

[Brad Bowers]

So, not the same architect across the street from each other. Still, maybe one tried to tie the buildings visually together.

No corporate connection, as the Knapp Building appears to have been named after the real estate coporation. Could be a familial connection, though.

Let the architectural archaeology continue!

Brad

 

[rlk]

So, not the same architect across the street from each other. Still, maybe one tried to tie the buildings visually together.

No corporate connection, as the Knapp Building appears to have been named after the real estate coporation. Could be a familial connection, though.

Let the architectural archaeology continue!

Brad

When the "new" Grand Central was built and the previously exposed tracks were covered over the improved Park Avenue to the north became shopping and apartments with uniform cornice lines and setbacks regulated. Most of the buildings were built at about the same time. I know the Warren & Wetmore archives are at the Avery Library at Columbia University (I was there 1977-84). I'll continue the search.

 

[rlk]

site of Cavanagh Store(off topic I suppose)

The new building before Cavanagh C. 1924 Grand Central terminal to the right (south)

47th St. Side(other building demolished for 245 Park Ave)Here you can see the railroad tracks underneath.

Looking south on Park Avenue towards the new New York Central Buiding tower, 1929. Cavanagh is on the left side corner just before the tower at the end of the street. (I know you can't really see it)

still searching for street level shots.

 

[billysmom]

My first Cavanagh! (I love the little center ridge.)

Sue

 

[jamespowers]

My first Cavanagh! (I love the little center ridge.)

Sue

One of my favorite features on a milan as well. Good find there. :eusa_clap :eusa_clap

 

[ScottF]

That's the most interesting hat I've seen in a while. Very nice. :eusa_clap


Just for fun, I googled the Cavanagh motto (from dream [or possibility] to reality) and found this.

Massive Bronze Cavanagh Hat Logo,
early 20th c., an undulating streamer flanks either side of a shield carrying two lions rampant in combat above the Latin motto "A POSSE AD ESSE" (from being possible to being). An architectural embellishment, this bronze once graced a factory in Connecticut that supplied New York City's famous Cavanagh Hat store on Park Avenue. J. Garvan Cavanagh ran the celebrated business until becoming a Roman Catholic priest in 1961. Cavanagh Hats was a subsidiary of the Hat Corporation of America and would later become Dobbs Hat Co. 24" x 42.5" 142 pounds

Interesting - in the bronze piece, they still seem to be facing a line as in the more modern colored logos, as if the logo is two distinct halves with mirrored images. The logo in the hat I recently acquired has them with their feet against a staff rather than a line, in some places partially covering the staff.

 

[jamespowers]

Interesting - in the bronze piece, they still seem to be facing a line as in the more modern colored logos, as if the logo is two distinct halves with mirrored images. The logo in the hat I recently acquired has them with their feet against a staff rather than a line, in some places partially covering the staff.

It is indeed much more modern than yours. The JC is also missing at the top as in your topper logo. There are a few other differences if you look close as well. The address being an interesting addition.

 

[ScottF]

It is indeed much more modern than yours. The JC is also missing at the top as in your topper logo. There are a few other differences if you look close as well. The address being an interesting addition.

I didn't notice before that the address is different from the usual one (like on RLK's homburg and Dreispitz' derby); however, here's a top hat that sold in June on ebay, with the same address in the logo - it even has a blank spot at the top of the crest for a message like the 'cavanagh process' one in mine:

ebay - Cavanagh top hat