The BORSALINO BROTHERHOOD

[steur]

I've been excitedly waiting for over a week for this one to arrive. It was worth the wait. Borsalino "Rizzo" Bowler. The establishment it was sold in, English House, was one of Copenhagen's most sought after gentleman's outfitters. They're slogan was, "The house that every gentleman knows".
Founded in 1910 and closed in 1955 at the location shown on the liner, it had its hey day in the 20s and 30s. From the label and liner, I'd place this one in the 1940s. Whether WWII 40s or post war is hard to say.
A "soft" Bowler, 154 grams, 5cm to the brim curl, 13.5cm crown height. Nice hand to the felt, and quality details on the ribbon and bow.
The only thing wrong with this Borsalino is it's not my size. The 6.5 punti is misleading as 7 1/4 should be a 6 punto, so 59 in cm.
Despite it's size, I'm happy
View attachment 381483 View attachment 381484 View attachment 381485 View attachment 381486 View attachment 381487

Almost skipped this one and that wouldn't be right. Gorgeous bowler and in excellent condition it seems, Steve. Too bad it's not your size. Where did you get the 7 1/4 size from, because the 6 1/2 should mean it's a size 60! I think Steve @mayserwegener is right about the dating. The very early ones with this label have the size written on it. Next we find these stickers and then the rubber stamp. Not consistently of course; it's still Borsalino

 

[Galgofriend]

Goodday Steur,
Thanks for your knowledge. It can be an early modern hat. The men in French speaking Belgium wear hats nowedays, something we don`t do in the western part of Holland. I think the price I paid was very interesting. The lady wanted €8, I paid €6 not bad for a hat of that quality. My other Borsalino I bought a year ago also in that part of Belgium. It`s a grey Borsalino Depositato and I paid even less.
I`m a lucky member of the Borsalino Brotherhood.
Galgofriend

 

[Steve1857]

Almost skipped this one and that wouldn't be right. Gorgeous bowler and in excellent condition it seems, Steve. Too bad it's not your size. Where did you get the 7 1/4 size from, because the 6 1/2 should mean it's a size 60! I think Steve @mayserwegener is right about the dating. The very early ones with this label have the size written on it. Next we find these stickers and then the rubber stamp. Not consistently of course; it's still Borsalino

Thanks Stefan.
There's a 7 1/4 size label on the sweatband. I forgot to post it in my original post. This seems to be more correct than the 6.5 punti label. 60cm would be far too big for me, but with two strips of cork, front and back, it sits fairly okay.

 

[Pellie]

Goodday Steur,
Thanks for your knowledge. It can be an early modern hat. The men in French speaking Belgium wear hats nowedays, something we don`t do in the western part of Holland. I think the price I paid was very interesting. The lady wanted €8, I paid €6 not bad for a hat of that quality. My other Borsalino I bought a year ago also in that part of Belgium. It`s a grey Borsalino Depositato and I paid even less.
I`m a lucky member of the Borsalino Brotherhood.
Galgofriend

Welcome at the Fedoralounge, now we dutch guys are even more represented here, right @steur ?

 

[Galgofriend]

Welcome at the Fedoralounge, now we dutch guys are even more represented here, right @steur ?

Thanks.
It`s nice to be a member.
Galgofriend

 

[steur]

Goodday Steur,
Thanks for your knowledge. It can be an early modern hat. The men in French speaking Belgium wear hats nowedays, something we don`t do in the western part of Holland. I think the price I paid was very interesting. The lady wanted €8, I paid €6 not bad for a hat of that quality. My other Borsalino I bought a year ago also in that part of Belgium. It`s a grey Borsalino Depositato and I paid even less.
I`m a lucky member of the Borsalino Brotherhood.
Galgofriend

Welcome at the Fedoralounge, now we dutch guys are even more represented here, right @steur ?

Thanks.
It`s nice to be a member.
Galgofriend

Like marcel said: welcome to the lounge and welcome to the Borsalino Brotherhood. Buying them at those prices is a steal and even the modern ones are still very high quality. If you are a size 60 you're going to find it tough to get your hands on vintage hats, as they are rare in that size. Now all we need to do is find out more about Dutch hatting history.

 

[Galgofriend]

Like marcel said: welcome to the lounge and welcome to the Borsalino Brotherhood. Buying them at those prices is a steal and even the modern ones are still very high quality. If you are a size 60 you're going to find it tough to get your hands on vintage hats, as they are rare in that size. Now all we need to do is find out more about Dutch hatting history.

As of now, it wasn`t difficult. I am a size 59 and 60 it depends of the brand. I bought a Stetson Mercer hat, a flat leather cap from Stetson. I also bought a Mayser hat (that was the expensive one €12) and a flatcap from Mayser. I paid not more than € 6.
We often visit flea markets in the French or German speaking part of Belgium, or we go to flea markets in Germany. Sometimes you have to look true big boxes with old hats to find a treasure. My last Borsalino was hitten under old clothes, we saw just a part of it.
I am a lucky member of the Borsalino Brotherhood.
Galgofriend

 

[Daniele Tanto]

Often on the Italian market of antique or vintage hats Borsalinos appear that have some quirks in their shape, color or construction. Most are "children of fashion" or of certain needs of some large retailer.

I give up 99% of the cases because they often have no appeal. When I saw this I awoke from the torpor of the Borsalino oddities.

The shape is curious: the crown is a soft bowler hat, so the fit is wider than the rigid ones, the brims are straight and edged, instead of being curled.

Therefore it is a "special hat", probably ordered for a ceremony where the owner wanted to show off something unusual, or it was a shape offered on the market a few years ago.

The hat is new and never worn except by me to show you.

The hat is tagged 59 cm. and its measures are 20.5x16.5 which correspond to a 59 cm wide size.
The measurements of this beauty are: flat edged and flat at 5.5cm, the ribbon is 4cm high. and the crown at its lowest point is 11.5 cm.

Suitable for the mundane occasions of the upcoming holidays, to have it send me a message.

 

[mayserwegener]

Often on the Italian market of antique or vintage hats Borsalinos appear that have some quirks in their shape, color or construction. Most are "children of fashion" or of certain needs of some large retailer.

I give up 99% of the cases because they often have no appeal. When I saw this I awoke from the torpor of the Borsalino oddities.

The shape is curious: the crown is a soft bowler hat, so the fit is wider than the rigid ones, the brims are straight and edged, instead of being curled.

Therefore it is a "special hat", probably ordered for a ceremony where the owner wanted to show off something unusual, or it was a shape offered on the market a few years ago.

The hat is new and never worn except by me to show you.

The hat is tagged 59 cm. and its measures are 20.5x16.5 which correspond to a 59 cm wide size.
The measurements of this beauty are: flat edged and flat at 5.5cm, the ribbon is 4cm high. and the crown at its lowest point is 11.5 cm.

Suitable for the mundane occasions of the upcoming holidays, to have it send me a message.

Daniele, Great find! Very unique + interesting! I like how it looked on too.

 

[Daniele Tanto]

Daniele, Great find! Very unique + interesting! I like how it looked on too.

Thanks Steve. This Borsalino is one of the oddities of the Alessandria house. I immediately thought of something unusual, suitable for some special occasion as the hat is a crossover of various styles.
It is particular like many others of Borsalino's "oddities" production.
Why it remained unsold is a mystery

 

[steur]

Often on the Italian market of antique or vintage hats Borsalinos appear that have some quirks in their shape, color or construction. Most are "children of fashion" or of certain needs of some large retailer.

I give up 99% of the cases because they often have no appeal. When I saw this I awoke from the torpor of the Borsalino oddities.

The shape is curious: the crown is a soft bowler hat, so the fit is wider than the rigid ones, the brims are straight and edged, instead of being curled.

Therefore it is a "special hat", probably ordered for a ceremony where the owner wanted to show off something unusual, or it was a shape offered on the market a few years ago.

The hat is new and never worn except by me to show you.

The hat is tagged 59 cm. and its measures are 20.5x16.5 which correspond to a 59 cm wide size.
The measurements of this beauty are: flat edged and flat at 5.5cm, the ribbon is 4cm high. and the crown at its lowest point is 11.5 cm.

Suitable for the mundane occasions of the upcoming holidays, to have it send me a message.

I second what Steve said: unique and interesting. Great find, Daniele.

 

[steur]

This one came in last week, but the weather didn't allow taking any pics. Here they are though.
Borsalino fedora Qualitá Extra in brown (likely Caffe). Size 56 with the raw edge brim at 6,5cm and the crown at 10,5cm at the pinch. Sold by Bubani of Ravenna. Sweatband is not the original one and likely the label went missing when it was replaced. Judging by the liner and it material it is quite early but not pre-war. I'm thinking forties.

Bubani of Ravenna is an interesting shop. It was taken over from the previous owners (the Foschini name that is mentioned on the liner) in 1904 and renamed Bubani. In 1923 the shop was remodeled in a truly glorious way. It catered to the well-to-do of Ravenna and provided imported hats and clothing, mostly from England, like Tress and Scott. Can't find any information about the closing date of the shop, but thankfully the shop front was saved.

Both the Bubani name (left) and Foschini (right) can be seen on the shop-front.

 

[Blare]

This one came in last week, but the weather didn't allow taking any pics. Here they are though.
Borsalino fedora Qualitá Extra in brown (likely Caffe). Size 56 with the raw edge brim at 6,5cm and the crown at 10,5cm at the pinch. Sold by Bubani of Ravenna. Sweatband is not the original one and likely the label went missing when it was replaced. Judging by the liner and it material it is quite early but not pre-war. I'm thinking forties.

Bubani of Ravenna is an interesting shop. It was taken over from the previous owners (the Foschini name that is mentioned on the liner) in 1904 and renamed Bubani. In 1923 the shop was remodeled in a truly glorious way. It catered to the well-to-do of Ravenna and provided imported hats and clothing, mostly from England, like Tress and Scott. Can't find any information about the closing date of the shop, but thankfully the shop front was saved.

Both the Bubani name (left) and Foschini (right) can be seen on the shop-front.

Fantastic find Stefan. And nice history

 

[steur]

Fantastic find Stefan. And nice history

Thanks, Joe.

 

[Pkyoakum]

The Borsalino Recap updated
Some weeks ago I posted an overview of the information there is on the lounge on all things Borsalino. Apart from an updated version of this information, with several colours added for instance, there’s also a first overview of the findings on the link between the model name and code numbers on the labels.

I’ve put all the available and readable labels in a database along with the other information that could be referenced to on the label, like felt, weight, brim width. Conclusion in general is that the dataset and useable information is unfortunately very limited. I’ve managed to collect data of a good 300 hats, which is not a lot to be honest. A large number of pictures is lost and in a lot of cases where the pictures are still there, the information is incomplete or the label was not photographed. This is most obvious with the older, pre-war hats, where the number of available hats is very small indeed.

Here’s an update of the recap. But we need more of these hats, guys!

But what cán we say? Well, from the information that is there it seems that the general concensus about dating the hats on the basis of the type of label is accurate to a very large extent. There is however an intermediate period between the cerrated labels of the mid to later sixties and the rounded labels with the hyphenated numbers, where information is more scarce and less clear than we’d like to think.
So, to put that in an overview we get this:
borsalino cell type (two different types) 1920 - 1936
View attachment 168210 View attachment 168211

borsalino sideways (sometimes in colour or with separate size sticker) 1936 - 1953
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The cerrated labels come in two variations. @alanfgag noticed that there was a difference in these, where one type was cerrated on at least three sides, so they must have come from a sheet. These are earlier and still have the model name in the lower right corner. below we see an example with the cerration on the left side, dated 1958.
borsalino cerrated sheet 1954 - 1960
View attachment 168215 View attachment 168214

Then we get the cerrated labels with straight edges left and right (like they were on a roll of one label wide) and the model name no longer appears in the lower right. Below an example dating from as early as 1960.
borsalino cerrated roll 1961 - 1965
View attachment 168217 View attachment 168216

After that the labels start to appear in straight edged shape with rounded corners. These comes in different shapes; more square looking, which I believe to be earlier and more elongated, which seem to appear in the early seventies. The colour name is still on the label.
borsalino rounded with colour name 1966 - 1975
View attachment 168225
View attachment 168226

For the next information I need a new post (because of the picture limit).

 

[Pkyoakum]

Wow you guys are amazing. Your Borsalino label history helped me identify a hat I just received as made between 1954-1960.

 

[Pkyoakum]

I am a new hat enthusiast and my first purchase, I picked up a size 7 3/8 Borsalino for $45.00. The label underneath the band indicates it was made between 1954-1960. I am amazed how soft the felt is. I love it.

 

[Pkyoakum]

I am a new hat enthusiast and my first purchase, I picked up a size 7 3/8 Borsalino for $45.00. The label underneath the band indicates it was made between 1954-1960. I am amazed how soft the felt is. I love it.

 

[deadlyhandsome]

This one came in last week, but the weather didn't allow taking any pics. Here they are though.
Borsalino fedora Qualitá Extra in brown (likely Caffe). Size 56 with the raw edge brim at 6,5cm and the crown at 10,5cm at the pinch. Sold by Bubani of Ravenna. Sweatband is not the original one and likely the label went missing when it was replaced. Judging by the liner and it material it is quite early but not pre-war. I'm thinking forties.

Bubani of Ravenna is an interesting shop. It was taken over from the previous owners (the Foschini name that is mentioned on the liner) in 1904 and renamed Bubani. In 1923 the shop was remodeled in a truly glorious way. It catered to the well-to-do of Ravenna and provided imported hats and clothing, mostly from England, like Tress and Scott. Can't find any information about the closing date of the shop, but thankfully the shop front was saved.

Both the Bubani name (left) and Foschini (right) can be seen on the shop-front.

Great hat, but I absolutely love that liner.

 

[Just Daniel]

Sweet hat! I’m with Brent, the liner is awesome.