The BORSALINO BROTHERHOOD

[moehawk]

Sorry, forgot this one.

 

[moehawk]

That's odd...the first two pics say invalid link..lets try again...



Maybe it will work this time.

 

[mayserwegener]

Nice one! It's modern but I am not sure about the dating from the later paper labels. Could be 2000.

 

[AMGbullitt]

very nice - congrats

 

[Daniele Tanto]

Borsalino Ghiaccio long hair

This Borsalino is an elegant hat during the 60 - 70, now it is rare and at that time it was one of the top line and expensive.
Borsalino Ghiaccio (Ice) fur felt finishing melousine


The color is a light silver with some blueish shades. Deep navy ribbon (4,5 cm.)
Finishing of the felt is medium soft and the hairs are long and rich of glints. Brims are sewed overwelt

The hat is gently worn or almost new



Dimension are the following: brim at 6 cm. and crown at 11 cm. (lowest point). Size is tagged at 60 or 7 1/2 US, a little bit tight as most of the Borsalino

One of the best example of fur felt or beaver finishing with the melousine method

 

[moehawk]

TY for the date guess on my hat Mayser and ty AMG. So, is the finish on the above hat similar to velour finish? Or is it a whole different animal so to speak?

 

[tommyK]

That's odd...the first two pics say invalid link..lets try again...
View attachment 22739
View attachment 22740

Maybe it will work this time.

moehawk, that edge treatment and mid ribbon with logo makes me think this is a fairly modern Como model. Probably sometime in the last 20 years. Not that old but hey, a new one is about $300 bucks so $3 is a great bargain.

 

[moehawk]

I'm not at all broken-hearted that it isn't vintage. It is a beautiful hat. The only downside to it is that it is so thin and lightweight that the wind from even a Mini Cooper can blow it off my head when I'm walking along the road. That's why it is mostly a special occasion hat, that and because it looks absolutely awesome with a suit and tie. And yes, paying a penny on the dollar for it makes it even better!

 

[mayserwegener]

This Borsalino is an elegant hat during the 60 - 70, now it is rare and at that time it was one of the top line and expensive.
Borsalino Ghiaccio (Ice) fur felt finishing melousine

The color is a light silver with some blueish shades. Deep navy ribbon (4,5 cm.)
Finishing of the felt is medium soft and the hairs are long and rich of glints. Brims are sewed overwelt

The hat is gently worn or almost new

Dimension are the following: brim at 6 cm. and crown at 11 cm. (lowest point). Size is tagged at 60 or 7 1/2 US, a little bit tight as most of the Borsalino

One of the best example of fur felt or beaver finishing with the melousine method

Fantastic! The color is really something!

 

[mayserwegener]

TY for the date guess on my hat Mayser and ty AMG. So, is the finish on the above hat similar to velour finish? Or is it a whole different animal so to speak?

It wouldn't be considered a Velour. I believe only the tips are clipped. If Daniele applied steam and brushed with the nap it would look different. It's really hard to cover a topic like this in a post thread. Methods changed over the years so what you see pre or around WWII may be different than what you see there after. You might want to take a look at my web site (see below) and send me a PM if you have specific questions.

 

[Daniele Tanto]

Original poste by mayserwagener
If Daniele applied steam and brushed with the nap it would look different

Yes it is almost true, but the combed long hairs stay (after steam, not so much because when too much wet the long hair is sticky like human hairs) in position until your fingers touch the hat, then they became uncombed
For this purpose I have prepared a comparisons between three hairy Italian hats. Borsalino, Barbisio, Guerra that appear singly in the appropriate thread.
I hope from this comparision you can have more informatioms about the melousine finishing.
For the short hair finishing I will take my time to prepare something special.
But finally the Borsalino finishing is not velour.

 

[mayserwegener]

For this purpose I have prepared a comparision between three hairy Italian hats. Borsalino, Barbisio, Guerra that appear singly in the appropriate thread.
I hope from this comparision you can have more informatioms about the melousine finishing. For this purpose I have prepared a comparision between three hairy Italian hats. Borsalino, Barbisio, Guerra that appear singly in the appropriate thread.
I hope from this comparision you can have more informatioms about the melousine finishing.
For the short hair finishing I will take my time to prepare something special.
But finally the Borsalino finishing is not velour.

What is interesting is that Melousine is not mentioned in pre WWII German documentation that I have. They mention Velours, Soleil and Flamand finishes.

When I think of the highest quality Velour it would be something similar to this pre WWII JHS Superior Crystal (Austrian) Velour. This has a longer nap but it wasn't called Melousine.

http://germanaustrianhats.invisionzone.com/index.php?/topic/6-johann-hueckel%C2%B4s-soehne-hueckel-hutfabrik-weilheim/page-2#entry273

The brushing (hot wet brushed after fulling and then dyeing) and polishing process of such a felt finish was by hand and the clipping by machine. The process could take weeks due to repeated processing (including redyeing) to achieve desired finish. The by hand process stopped sometime after WWII and you can see the difference in the quality. They wouldn't have considered a dry brushed finish (see Shark skin mechanized brush + clip post dye which most today consider Velour) as Real Velour. See this link for an overview of the old process (scroll down to Finishing Castor (Beaver) and Velour Hats).

http://germanaustrianhats.invisionzone.com/index.php?/topic/140-die-hutmacherkunst-ein-handbuch-fuer-den-klein-und-grossbetrieb-by-carl-bortfeldt-1902/

I am not sure how modern day Melousine is produced. I know Bahner has wet brush machines so they could be used by some producers(also for Velours).

(See 234)

http://www.hatmachines.com/katalog.asp?lg=gb&pagenr=6


Unfortunately when I visited TONAK I didn't see Velours or Melousine produced (just finished products) and I wasn't as aware of the process as I am now so didn't know what to look for machine wise.

 

[mayserwegener]

Yes it is almost true, but the combed long hairs stay (after steam, not so much because when too much wet the long hair is sticky like human hairs) in position until your fingers touch the hat, then they became uncombed

Yes I understand but some on here only see a shaggy finish when uncombed / brushed.

 

[Daniele Tanto]

You are right Steve. This kind of finish as the short hair or velour or suede or flammand seems not so common outside Europe.
I'm preparing one comparisons on the short hair finish, hoping it match the interest of hats lovers.
I see, on the other side, that Black Sheep is launching these types of finishes of the felt on US market
Now the long hair felt hats are here http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?65983-Side-By-Side-Hat-Comparisons/page40

 

[mayserwegener]

You are right Steve. This kind of finish as the short hair or velour or suede or flammand seems not so common outside Europe.
I'm preparing one comparision on the short hair finish, hoping it match the interest of hats lovers.
I see, on the other side, that Black Sheep is launching these types of finishes of the felt on US market

They would only be able to work from supplied hat bodies (no control over felting) so I am skeptical. The old (might be today in some cases) Velour processing started on not completely fulled un-dyed felt. In my opinion just to many unknowns (also outside of felt preparation). TONAK sent me some very nice Velour samples (that I lost) but nothing like the JHS Superior Crystal Velour I posted above. I have only seen photos of what FEPSA (Optimo Chicago) is producing (Velour & Melousine) and have no idea about PolkaP.

 

[Guardian Enzo]

Well, I finally managed to claw my way into this exclusive club thanks to a fellow Lounger - this is my first Borsalino. It's not in mind condition, obviously, but it's a hat that seems to look better on the head than on the hook if you know what I mean - it has a rakish quality that I quite like. It has a 2 1/4 brim and what I can only assume is a classic vintage Borsalino feel - very soft and lightweight, extremely pliable felt.

Unfortunately the original sweat is no longer in-place, but based on the liner logo, styling and the factory tag I'd guess somewhere around 1960 give or take a couple of years - though I'm no expert, so I'm hoping one of you who is can make a better and more educated guess. I know the theory about the first two digits being the year of production has been largely discredited, but in this case it seems very feasible to me - this hat really does look like a '58 or so to me.

 

[alanfgag]

Your estimate of 1960-ish is good. The numbering that included a year notation is later.

 

[Guardian Enzo]

Your estimate of 1960-ish is good. The numbering that included a year notation is later.

It's generally agreed that the "golden age" for quality lasted considerably longer at Borsalino than most other hatmakers, is it not?

In flipping through this thread, I see another lounger purchased a "Daino" a few years ago, a hat for which the styling looks identical to my eye apart from that hat having a raw edge, and which appears to bear the same style of factory tag (rectangular, straight-sided, same lettering). That hat was said to be 40's, but I wouldn't have placed this one quite that early.

 

[alanfgag]

It's generally agreed that the "golden age" for quality lasted considerably longer at Borsalino than most other hatmakers, is it not?

In flipping through this thread, I see another lounger purchased a "Daino" a few years ago, a hat for which the styling looks identical to my eye apart from that hat having a raw edge, and which appears to bear the same style of factory tag (rectangular, straight-sided, same lettering). That hat was said to be 40's, but I wouldn't have placed this one quite that early.

From my experience, European hat styles and quality traditions were more slow to change after the second world war than in the U.S. Some of us value the retention of softness and formability in Borsalino hats during a time when Stetsons and other U.S. brands were shifting toward rigor mortis. You are correct about that hat posted in 2009. Knowledge has grown, but there remains a tendency here and in other places where vintage hats are sold (wishful thinking perhaps) to advance the age of a hat beyond its years.

 

[Daniele Tanto]

I agree with Alan. In Europe, the hatters, both large and small, have continued at least up to the 80' to produce excellent hats. I have the example, in my hands of those Italian and French and only at the end (closing) of activities have left the high quality. But there is a noticeable difference with the United States, here in Europe hats seems in a long coma from which it seems difficult to be awakened, while in the US, it seems to me that are far away, the market is rising as well as the quality of home production. Age of Italian hats that are sold often on the web are exaggeratly "old age." We always keep into account that five years of war have wiped out many findings made before the war.
Many Borsalino or Barbisio and others, that are sometimes on the market, belong almost entirely to the generation after World War II.