The BORSALINO BROTHERHOOD

[carouselvic]

Borsalino Medallion Liners (in blue)

A tan, felted edge Borsalino. Corrugated 2" sweatband.


A brown Borsalino, velor finish with sewn up welt. The hang tags, back bow, liner material have all changed. The sweatband has been reduced to 1 3/4" width and corrugated front omitted.


I own both hats and the quality is good on both, but I would bet $ to donuts that there is at least 20 years between the age of these hats.

 

[WineGuy]

What does the corrugation do?

Hi carouselvic,
I've noticed the term "corrugated sweatband" thrown around but yours is the first photo I've seen. Can you explain the purpose of the corrugation, is it to give room to stretch or possibly for a more pliable fit? Is it unique to Borsalino or do others use it? Thanks!

 

[carouselvic]

It helps keep sweat from transferring to the exterior of the hat. Yes, other manufactures did it some, but not as much as Borsalino.

 

[Lefty]

I'm leaving neutral feedback with warning to buyers to verify sellers claims...does that sound reasonable?

This is completely unreasonable. The seller's description is likely based upon what (s)he heard or thought. As Dinerman noted, we're not doing much better here. You saw the photos, you got a nice hat, you paid (apparently) what you consider to be a fair price. Quibbling about the box and origin, in a case where neither is really anything special, seems petty.

 

[Dinerman]

Tomorrow I'm leaving neutral feedback with warning to buyers to verify sellers claims...does that sound reasonable?

Leaving neutral feedback does not seem reasonable in this situation.

The seller made a logical assumption about the box, one which you believed. It takes a lot of experience and research to accurately date hats, and even then, it's not precise, especially when dealing with Borsalinos.

 

[ScottF]

I own both hats and the quality is good on both, but I would bet $ to donuts that there is at least 20 years between the age of these hats.

mmm...if only I could have my donuts and wear your hats too.

 

[WineGuy]

Re feedback

So if one is looking for a 1940's Borsalino and bids on a hat that was represented to be 1940's and it turns out to be 50's/60's instead, I should not reflect that in the feedback? I bid and paid higher for this hat specifically because it was claimed to be from the 40's, if the seller had indicated that they were not sure or it might me from the forties then I would have put in a lower bid. I maybe new to vintage hats, but I'm not new to using ebay and I feel the seller was misleading about the hat. I would normally leave negative feedback but I thought that a neutral was being generous.

 

[Aureliano]

I agree with Lefty and Dinerman. It sounds, to me, that the seller just followed all the "evidence" he had at hand. I don't know. I think you got yourself a nice vintage hat and because of this incident a whole new perspective on how to get your next one. Leaving neutral or even negative feedback does seem unreasonable.

 

[Lefty]

On ebay, almost every fedora is from the 40s, practically every boater is from the 20s, and nearly every derby is 100 years old. Realistically, a great percentage of fedoras and boaters are 50s or newer (many are less than 20 years old) and the derbies are rarely older than the 1930s. If you're buying specifically for a date, you're going to have to shy away from Borsalinos and go with a big American brand - most of which we can date to a decade based on any number of factors. As this thread has proven time and time again, there's no way to accurately date a Borsalino. You want a date? Buy a Stetson.

As to boxes, it's already been said, but I've seen many listings, and I'm sure that there are plenty of them up now, that read "1940s Stetson hat with original Dobbs box". You might get a box from the same era as a hat but, unless there's a lot of information (size, color, model, serial number) on the box that's also reflected by labels in the hat, you'll never know if a box was the one that originally held a hat.

 

[jimmy the lid]

I hear ya, Wineguy -- but I have a slightly different take. I never put any stock in an eBay Seller's opinion on a hat's age. For the most part, I just take any such opinion with a grain of salt, and chalk it up to someone who really might think that a hat dates to the 40's or 50's, etc., etc. I wouldn't consider any such opinion to be malicious, and I wouldn't jam them on feedback. To me, it's a non-issue. Heck, that's what hanging out here on the Lounge is for -- to educate oneself and become a much more informed buyer. I will say, however, that in certain cases, I may send a message to the Seller asking what particular information they may be relying on in dating the hat. Sometimes they have good info, sometimes they don't. But, if it's important to me, I find that out before bidding.

Anyway -- I think you've got yourself a nice lid there.

Cheers,
JtL

 

[rlk]

This thread also shows that there really is no substantial qualitative difference between the Borsalino of late 1940's-early 1960's of a given style. If in doubt you can always leave no feedback at all.

 

[WineGuy]

Since the majority of brotherhood who responded to my situation seem to feel that negative or neutral feedback is unwarranted in this situation, I left positive feedback but gave a neutral 3 stars to the item description category and I mentioned in the feedback that the hat was not of the vintage described and buyers should ask detailed questions before bidding on this sellers auctions.

Fair?

 

[Aureliano]

Since the majority of brotherhood who responded to my situation seem to feel that negative or neutral feedback is unwarranted in this situation, I left positive feedback but gave a neutral 3 stars to the item description category and I mentioned in the feedback that the hat was not of the vintage described and buyers should ask detailed questions before bidding on this sellers auctions.

Fair?

Very much indeed!

 

[Aureliano]

Just finished attending a lecture on carbon dating for art conservation.
Maybe we could put Borsalinos under it. [huh]

 

[Brian Sheridan]

Offering the following as proof for application to the Bosalino Brotherhood.

I bought the hat from Chiliarches because it did not fit him.

It is in great shape - it is marked as a Torino from Baskin's.

Guessing its late 40's or 50's??? Unless the inside numbers do reflect manufactuer dates. In that case, this is from 1982. So much for vintage.LOL. I am by no means an expert and would love help dating it.

Here are pics:

 

[rlk]

Offering the following as proof for application to the Bosalino Brotherhood.

I bought the hat from Chiliarches because it did not fit him.

It is in great shape - it is marked as a Torino from Baskin's.

Guessing its late 40's or 50's??? Unless the inside numbers do reflect manufactuer dates. In that case, this is from 1982. So much for vintage.LOL. I am by no means an expert and would love help dating it.



Seeing the sweatband(+paper stickers beneath)size tag if present and the brim and crown dimensions would also be helpful.
I do have a hat with the same liner and it has 78-...as part of the numbering and I suspect that to be dating. This would possibly make your 1982 likely.

Med. Brown Hairy Hare "Silchi" Hat 2-1/2" brim 1970's? $44.00 price sticker. I remember buying my first hat in 1978 at the Stetson Store in NYC for $45.00

 

[Chinaski]

fftopic: but maybe germane to the current divergence, re: Wineguy's recent Borsalino experience. When would you leave negative feedback?

 

[jimmy the lid]

fftopic: but maybe germane to the current divergence, re: Wineguy's recent Borsalino experience. When would you leave negative feedback?

Any chance you could start that discussion on the eBay thread instead of here? I think this thread should be preserved for discussion of Borsalinos, and probably too much bandwith has already been used here on the eBay seller issue... Just a friendly thought...

Cheers,
JtL

 

[Chinaski]

No offense taken, Jimmy. The thought came up while I was reading the discussion. I'm all for keeping the topic on Borsalino. I've read this thread with interest, as there seems to be no consistencies in terms of dating. Have any solid conclusions been made???

 

[jimmy the lid]

I think that it is fair to say that dating vintage Borsalinos is a much more tricky exercise than dating vintage Stetsons, for example. As has already been pointed out, over certain periods of time, Borsalino remained fairly consistent in their use of liners, sweats, method of attaching the sweat, size tags, etc. That's not to say that certain characteristics might not give some good clues, but it may remain very difficult to say with any certainty that an Alessandria model, for example, is from the 50's versus the 60's.

All that being said, I think it's fair to say that, as a general matter, the quality of Borsalino hats remained fairly consistent over time -- with the factory move in 1986 apparently being a marker for quality taking a downturn. So, there's a pretty big window for Borsalinos being of very high quality, regardless of the particular decade of manufacture.

These thoughts are definitely informed by what I have read on this thread, as well as the Dating Borsalino Liners thread. Lots of interesting discussion and info.

Cheers,
JtL