The BORSALINO BROTHERHOOD

[ScottF]

Borsalino hats have been made under license in other countries in the past. In the USa it was Bollman . In Columbia SA it was Colfieltros . Its realy not that hard to tell the difference between the origianl and the other versions. The quality is the first way to see the difference. USA made versions were stiffer and could not say "made in Italy" . The South American versions were trimmed terribly and also could not sat made in Italy. Colfieltros is out of business since 2007 and Bollman lost the license years ago .
As for older hats such as the Fu Lazzaro versions, I know that Borsalino bought out other companies over the years such as Vanzina which was in Pavia Italy .There were also two seperate distributors here in the USA back in the 1920's and they may have had slightly different versions made for each other. I have quite a few Fu Lazzaro Borsalino hats that were definately made by the origial Borsalino company back in the late 1950's . They had different labels for different quility levels.
Many of the Borsalino hats that are in the Museum in Alessandria do not have linings so it is difficult to tell what the quality levels were years ago . If anyone wanted to research what was sold here years ago , you need to finds copies of a magazine called " The American Hatter" It was a trade publication that existed from 1890 until 1937 . It was ads from all of the companies that were wround then and is very useful for dating hats .

Steven
www.bencrafthats.com

Thanks, Steven - useful and very interesting information. I did see a 'made in U.S.A.' Borsalino on ebay, labeled in the sweat as such.

All other Borsalinos I've held have been of high quality, even two that did not say 'Made in Italy', so I suppose I can assume they were indeed made in Italy.

As far as the fu Lazarro ones, that's very interesting info that they were made in the late '50s by Borsalino. I have one arriving any day now that might fit your description.

Thanks!

 

[ScottF]

U.S.A. Borsalino

 

[cookie]

This breaks the rules but here is a Borsalino that I do not believe ever saw Italy.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ELEGANT-BORSALI...s=65:10|66:2|39:1|240:1318|301:1|293:1|294:50

As someone who has been to Bolivia and likes Borsalinos I was always intrigued how a poverty stricken country like Bolivia managed to wear Borsalinos as their national hat. The Bolivian bowler hats were adapted from 19c colonial and other practices and were essentially "latched onto" by the 'cholas'/Indian women. This now answers the question about who makes the Bolivian HUANUNI hats because I had always heard it was Borsalino and this item confirms Besdor's point about foreign licensing.

 

[ScottF]

As someone who has been to Bolivia and likes Borsalinos I was always intrigued how a poverty stricken country like Bolivia managed to wear Borsalinos as their national hat. The Bolivian bowler hats were adapted from 19c colonial and other practices and were essentially "latched onto" by the 'cholas'/Indian women. This now answers the question about who makes the Bolivian HUANUNI hats because I had always heard it was Borsalino and this item confirms Besdor's point about foreign licensing.

Holy Cow!!! What an appropriate time for that auction to show up. I doubt anyone will complain that it's current.

I really got edumumcated today.

 

[jamespowers]

Holy Cow!!! What an appropriate time for that auction to show up. I doubt anyone will complain that it's current.

I really got edumumcated today.

Size 3!? Riiiiiight. I think my dog might need a hat.

 

[ScottF]

I have quite a few Fu Lazzaro Borsalino hats that were definitely made by the origial Borsalino company back in the late 1950's . They had different labels for different quality levels.

Steven
www.bencrafthats.com

Steven, I just acquired a Borsalino Fu Lazzaro 'Giunglia' (Jungle) model. It is definitely a pimp hat - thick velour, including the band. This had to have been made in the '70s. Thoughts? It has a $30 company price tag under the sweatband.

 

[mayserwegener]

Borsalino Homburg

Borsalino Homburg I picked up from Dreispitz. Very beautiful felt on is one and typical Borsalino style / quality. Made for HutKoenig Regensburg.

 

[WineGuy]

A request to join the Brotherhood AND help needed...

I just won my first Borsalino and would really appreciate the brotherhoods help in dating it. The ebay seller represented that the hat was from the 1940's which was in the era I was looking for but the hat seems to be unconventional.

Before I leave the seller positive feedback I simply want to have a few Borsalino experts tell me that they agree it's at least that old.

This hat is a warm grey and is very light fur felt, PistolPete1969 appears to have a similar one and referred to it as "Hankerchief felt", is that a technical term? It there a significance to that?

The most unusual part is that the sweatband is a dark brown and not the lighter brown I seem to see on all the vintage Borsalinos. The band is 1 3/4" deep and it is embossed "Shudde Bros Houston". I spoke to a Shudde saleman the other day but he could not tell me much other than they have been selling this brand since the 40's. I'm going to try to reach Neal Shudde on Wednesday.

There are no tags at all, and no sign that tags were ever present i.e. no glue spots or discolorations or torn stitches.

The hat came in a Rogers Peet box and has an original receipt of purchase showing a hat costing $20 and delivered to Hampshire House in Manhattan. I have a copy of a Rogers Peet newspaper ad from 1947 promoting Borsalino hats selling for $20. On the assumption that the hat was purchased from Rogers Peet, would it be a stretch of the imagination to suppose the hat was sent to Shudde for re-blocking or some other service that might have included replacing the original sweat band with a Shudde band?

Another possibility is that Shudde supplied Roger Peet with Borsalinos. Has anyone seen a Roger Peet labeled Borsalino?

Here are some photos:

The brim is 2 3/8" and the crown approximately 5"

(below)This is closer to the exact color than the shots above, but the hat is still a hair darker and less red.

There are absolutely no signs of tags ever being affixed, no glue marks, no discolorations and no open stitches.

 

[Aureliano]

Beautiful hat WineGuy. I'm no expert by any means but surely you'll hear from someone soon. I have a couple of vintage borsalinos and non of them say, inside the crest, "Original house founded in 1857" but "Antica casa fondata nel 1857" (same thing in italian) I don't know if that means anything else but that your hat was marketed for the USA. Good luck. Terrific hat!:eusa_clap

 

[jamespowers]

I'll defer to a few others here who know a bit more than I do but I don't think we are looking at a 1940s Borsalino here. The box does not appear to be original to the hat nor does the receipt. If it says Shudde Brothers on the sweatband then it was sold at Shudde Brothers and likely they had their own boxes. [huh]
I would say at earliest---late 1950s. Something seems really new with the sweatband and the liner. They could have been replaced but by Shudde Brothers? You might want to find out if they did renovations for customers.

 

[Brian Sheridan]

Don't be jealous, as I did not get them all at once. It's been months, stretching into years of obsessions and trickery! Timing the deliveries and then rushing home to get the box before anyone else is around.... then hiding the hat in a safe place and introducing it's existence at just the right time.... and let's not mention the budgetary manipulations.... so what's an overdue utility bill as we approach the winter months? lol

My God...I am waiting for my first vintage borso to arrive and I doing the same thing!

 

[rlk]

I just won my first Borsalino and would really appreciate the brotherhoods help in dating it. The ebay seller represented that the hat was from the 1940's which was in the era I was looking for but the hat seems to be unconventional.

Before I leave the seller positive feedback I simply want to have a few Borsalino experts tell me that they agree it's at least that old.

This hat is a warm grey and is very light fur felt, PistolPete1969 appears to have a similar one and referred to it as "Hankerchief felt", is that a technical term? It there a significance to that?

The most unusual part is that the sweatband is a dark brown and not the lighter brown I seem to see on all the vintage Borsalinos. The band is 1 3/4" deep and it is embossed "Shudde Bros Houston". I spoke to a Shudde saleman the other day but he could not tell me much other than they have been selling this brand since the 40's. I'm going to try to reach Neal Shudde on Wednesday.

There are no tags at all, and no sign that tags were ever present i.e. no glue spots or discolorations or torn stitches.

The hat came in a Rogers Peet box and has an original receipt of purchase showing a hat costing $20 and delivered to Hampshire House in Manhattan. I have a copy of a Rogers Peet newspaper ad from 1947 promoting Borsalino hats selling for $20. On the assumption that the hat was purchased from Rogers Peet, would it be a stretch of the imagination to suppose the hat was sent to Shudde for re-blocking or some other service that might have included replacing the original sweat band with a Shudde band?

Another possibility is that Shudde supplied Roger Peet with Borsalinos. Has anyone seen a Roger Peet labeled Borsalino?
The brim is 2 3/8" and the crown approximately 5"




I have a Shudde Bros Borsalino Alessandria-type hat with the same liner and sweatband(and stitching to body) and it has no stitching at the taped sweatband seam. Also thin felt and no tags. The box may well be from other hats originally. Since the sweatband is stitched directly to the body I suspect the earlier dating range. Mine has 2-5/8 brim and a bit redder coloration but is otherwise the same. Seller was from Texas.

 

[WineGuy]

If it says Shudde Brothers on the sweatband then it was sold at Shudde Brothers

They could have been replaced but by Shudde Brothers? You might want to find out if they did renovations for customers.

Hi jamespowers,

Shudde does and did hat renovations, so I would agree it's possible that the hat had it's sweat band replaced by Shudde...that would at least explain the total lack of labels.

Does the liner give any hints to age? You say you think it's no older than the late 50's, can you tell me what you see in the hat to lead you to that conclusion? I'm trying to learn about Borsalino's as fast as I can.

 

[WineGuy]

OK, now were talking....

Thanks rlk,

Can you post a picture or two so I can compare. Also, if I understand you correctly, you do think it might be 40's vintage. What did you do to verify your own hats age?

 

[mayserwegener]

Borsalino Green Stingy made for the German market

Since this thread surfaced I will post a stingy green Borsalino (green sweat) made for the German market. This one has some super nice lush / pliable felt. I am thinking late 1960s early 70s.

 

[rlk]

Same Liner as WineGuy

Very nearly the same liner but more pronounced corrugation at front of 2" sweatband and stitched seam and fabric size tag. From Zachary, Atlanta and has a $20.00 price tag underneath the liner.

Same liner Shudde Bros and Borsalino Logo and stitching but taped seam and slightly lighter color leather. Originally had the wind trolley.
I think this shows the liner was used over a period of time for USA sold Borsalino.

 

[jamespowers]

Can you get a shot of the Borsalino logo on the sweatband so we can compare that? Is it the same or slightly different in appearance and wording?

 

[Bantam Man]

Borsalino

Hi WineGuy,

Sorry, but I do not see a reason to date your Borsalino earlier than the fifties. The liner is just too modern to date from the forties.

Also, I think the sweatband is original to the hat. It seems improbable to me that a Borsalino replacement sweat -- with the same US-specific text as the liner -- would have been available to a repair man.

I think Borsalino (or their US-agent or licensee) would be very reluctant in distributing replacement liners or sweats with the Borsalino logo, if any. By doing so, they would risk these coming into the hands of a less trustworthy hatter, who would 'upgrade' a no-name hat body with these Borsalino-parts... Have we ever seen replacement parts around the lounge with the imprints/logo's of A-brand hatters?

 

[WineGuy]

Re: Boraslino

Thanks Bantam Man, do you by chance have a picture of what a forties liner should look like? I agree with you about the sweat band, let's go on the assumption that it is original and not a retro fit, have you seen examples of Borsalino's that had no tags at all like mine and rlk's? I'm not challenging you, just trying to get visual reference for my own education.

 

[carouselvic]

Gray hat from Rogers Peat 50's medium brown sweat 2" wide


The oval medallion was used for many decades, in numerous colors
Brown Borsalino with dark brown sweat 60's-70's