So trivial, yet it really ticks you off.

[vitanola]

The farm I grew up on (as well as the house across the street- the hired hand''s house- and the house down the road) had spring boxes for water before the city pipeline went through in 1900 (landowners were offered free water for the life of the house or $100). Whenever my parents dug 2.5 feet down, they inevitably found lead pipe, once out of about eight digs.

Kind of makes me shudder to think about... you could bend that pipe in your bare hands.

All this lead paint talk reminded me of a "so trivial ..." little corruption event that happened during our renovation. Because our apartment was built in 1928, to get our restoration plan approved by the NYC DOB, we had to have an asbestos inspection.

That seemed reasonable to me as we know it is very dangerous to breath that in and during demolition, we wouldn't want to release that into the air. Of course, we had our fingers crossed that we'd pass as asbestos remediation is very expensive.

The DOB required us to hire a NYC licensed asbestos inspection company for $900 (which I had to pay before he'd come - checked, they all worked this way for the exact same fee) - sounded high to me, but I figured it would be very comprehensive as we were demoing one bathroom, one kitchen and doing some other work throughout that would break into some walls (all of this was on the NYC architect approved plans I had to submit to the DOB before hiring the asbestos inspector - also not cheap).

On the day of the inspection, I met the inspector - nice enough guy - who came into the apartment, took three random one-inch deep wall samples that were not from the rooms being demo'ed. I mentioned this to him, he shrugged, put the samples in a bag, told me I'd get a report in a few weeks and left (was in and out in under 10 minutes).

I "passed" this complete nonsense of an inspection. Any one want to bet that $900 fee isn't part of a some graft / kickback scheme to someone in gov't? Being worried about the contractor's team, I mentioned all this to the contractor and he said, "good you passed, it's a pain if we have to do remediation." I said, but I don't want your guys to get sick. Again, "don't worry about, we'll wear masks." Which they half did, half didn't.

This is and example of a perfect partnership of corruption between the licensed private inspection companies and the gov't officials licensing them. I got cheated out of money and the workers it should have protected (and others in the building) didn't get protected.

I really don't know much about Lily Tomlin at all, but in my mind, she is a hero for having one of the best quotes ever:

"No matter how cynical you become, it's never enough to keep up." - Lily Tomlin

Well, I see that your contractor apparently did not explain what he was doing. My best friend has been an asbestos abatement contractor for more than thirty years. I've followed his work sufficiently to perhaps be able to better explain the porcess to you.

Asbestos is seldom found in 1920's and 1930's vintage plaster. Horse hair was generally used as the flock back then. That said, when asbestos is present in old plaster it is generally present in large amounts. Asbestos is, however, common in patching plaster and drywall joint compound used between 1950 and 1985 or 1986.

Your inspector should have done a visual inspection to determine the presence of asbestos floor tile (the old 9" square asphalt and vinyl tiles are always "hot" as are the mastics used with them). If he was familiar with your building and knew it to not contain asbestos in its original plaster an efficient inspector would only take samples of suspicious patches or possible new work. There would be little sense to take samples of untouched old work, unless the inspector simply wanted to run up your bill.

$300 per sample is a bit on the high side (for the Midwest), but seems reasonable for New York. You are paying no only for the sample and analysis, but for the permanent paperwork associated therewith. The laboratories are licensed and bonded, expensive requirements necessitated by the many attempts to game the system over the years.

 

[tonyb]

^^^^
To go on a bit of a tangent ...

Is it so that unless the asbestos-containing material (plaster, joint compound, acoustic ["popcorn"] ceilings, etc.) is disturbed and the asbestos fibers go airborne it presents no real threat to the well-being of the occupants of the structure?

I ask because I've seen many an old furnace with ducting wrapped in some sort of fabric tape (and covered with layers of paint, often) which I'm supposing contains asbestos. A friend with such an old house shrugged when I asked if that ducting in his basement furnace room caused him any concern. "Just leave it alone," is a close paraphrase of his response.

 

[LizzieMaine]

That's how I've always understood it. Stable asbestos isn't the problem -- it's "friable" asbestos, the kind that flakes into fibrous bits that can cause problems. I've heard of people flying into a panic when they discover that an old radio or appliance has an asbestos pad inside it designed to protect the cabinet from heat, but if you leave it be it's not going to be a problem.

 

[vitanola]

I grew up in the Adirondack Mountains... so the acidic thin soil over a granite base where the blueberries grow.

Although things got a lot worse with acid rain... something I haven't heard anyone worry about living in the southern tier where I live now (limestone and shale base.) My parents had their soil tested in the early 1990s... it returned a pH of 3.

Well, to quote an insurance company inspector when he was told by a PhD friend that the waste from his laboratory was neutralized to a Ph of 7: "Well, that's fine for now, but work on getting it closer to zero in the future."

 

[vitanola]

^^^^
To go on a bit of a tangent ...

Is it so that unless the asbestos-containing material (plaster, joint compound, acoustic ["popcorn"] ceilings, etc.) is disturbed and the asbestos fibers go airborne it presents no real threat to the well-being of the occupants of the structure?

I ask because I've seen many an old furnace with ducting wrapped in some sort of fabric tape (and covered with layers of paint, often) which I'm supposing contains asbestos. A friend with such an old house shrugged when I asked if that ducting in his basement furnace room caused him any concern. "Just leave it alone," is a close paraphrase of his response.

That's how I've always understood it. Stable asbestos isn't the problem -- it's "friable" asbestos, the kind that flakes into fibrous bits that can cause problems. I've heard of people flying into a panic when they discover that an old radio or appliance has an asbestos pad inside it designed to protect the cabinet from heat, but if you leave it be it's not going to be a problem.

As my friend says: "Fibres flyin'? Folks are dyin'!"

Asbestos paper which was used to wrap duct work is best "encapsulated". A thin acrylic coating with a surfactant added to allow better wetting (allow the coating to soak the paper through) will adequately encapsulate the paper until such time as the duct is replaced in the ordinary course of modernization. Thin water base paint also works fairly well for this purpose, though a purpose made encapsulant is better, and little more expensive. The insulation on steam or hot water pipes is more problematic. If it is so-called "Air Cell", which is a corrugated asbestos paper product, much like multi-layered corrugated cardboard,, the straight sections may be safely coated with the same sort of encapsulant. The fittings, however, would doubtless be coated with "Mag block", a pipe lagging made up of asbestos flock and a binder. These are coated with cheese cloth covered with plaster, in the manner of a cast, before encapsulation. Some times the entire piping system is insulated with lagging, even the boiler itself may be so covered. In this case the entire installation must be covered with the cast

 

[EngProf]

As my friend says: "Fibres flyin'? Folks are dyin'!"

Asbestos paper which was used to wrap duct work is best "encapsulated". A thin acrylic coating with a surfactant added to allow better wetting (allow the coating to soak the paper through) will adequately encapsulate the paper until such time as the duct is replaced in the ordinary course of modernization. Thin water base paint also works fairly well for this purpose, though a purpose made encapsulant is better, and little more expensive. The insulation on steam or hot water pipes is more problematic. If it is so-called "Air Cell", which is a corrugated asbestos paper product, much like multi-layered corrugated cardboard,, the straight sections may be safely coated with the same sort of encapsulant. The fittings, however, would doubtless be coated with "Mag block", a pipe lagging made up of asbestos flock and a binder. These are coated with cheese cloth covered with plaster, in the manner of a cast, before encapsulation. Some times the entire piping system is insulated with lagging, even the boiler itself may be so covered. In this case the entire installation must be covered with the cast

I spent my first engineering career as an "Environmental Engineer' and one of our areas of responsibility was asbestos testing and remediation.
What Vitanola says is dead-on (some pun intended) and I couldn't say it any better.

Two anecdotes from that time:
One of our field techs (Chuck) went out to a rural school where the principal had (on his own) hired some local handy men to start taking out the asbestos from his school. They had no idea what they were doing, so when Chuck went in the school's front door and looked at all the white powder everywhere, he ran back out into the parking lot. He wouldn't go in again and made the principal come out and meet him out there.
It was a total expensive mess to fix, but they finally did. I don't know if the principal got disciplined or fired over that.

Another incident involved a phone call that my supervisor got from someone who was facing a big bill for asbestos removal and didn't want to do it. He said to my boss something like: "Well, when they give stuff to rats *everything* causes cancer."
My boss said, "The difference is that when it comes to exposure to asbestos and getting mesothelioma, the test "rats" are people."

 

[sheeplady]

I knew a woman who died of mesothelioma. Her husband worked in a mill producing some products with the stuff (they knew it was dangerous) and the workers had all the protective gear.

He'd come home and she'd go to the backyard and shake his "dusty" clothes out so her wash machine wouldn't get filled with the particles.

Such a waste.

 

[Fading Fast]

Well, I see that your contractor apparently did not explain what he was doing. My best friend has been an asbestos abatement contractor for more than thirty years. I've followed his work sufficiently to perhaps be able to better explain the porcess to you.

Asbestos is seldom found in 1920's and 1930's vintage plaster. Horse hair was generally used as the flock back then. That said, when asbestos is present in old plaster it is generally present in large amounts. Asbestos is, however, common in patching plaster and drywall joint compound used between 1950 and 1985 or 1986.

Your inspector should have done a visual inspection to determine the presence of asbestos floor tile (the old 9" square asphalt and vinyl tiles are always "hot" as are the mastics used with them). If he was familiar with your building and knew it to not contain asbestos in its original plaster an efficient inspector would only take samples of suspicious patches or possible new work. There would be little sense to take samples of untouched old work, unless the inspector simply wanted to run up your bill.

$300 per sample is a bit on the high side (for the Midwest), but seems reasonable for New York. You are paying no only for the sample and analysis, but for the permanent paperwork associated therewith. The laboratories are licensed and bonded, expensive requirements necessitated by the many attempts to game the system over the years.

Clearly you know what you are talking about and I'm happy to stand corrected. Does it make sense to you that his three sample weren't even from the areas / from the rooms where work was to be done? Other than that, what you said fits in perfectly with how the sampling was done and explains the cost. Hence, in addition to acknowledging I was wrong, I will acknowledge that my Lily Tomlin "cynicism" quote does not apply for this one. Thank you for the enlightenment.

 

[Fading Fast]

I knew a woman who died of mesothelioma. Her husband worked in a mill producing some products with the stuff (they knew it was dangerous) and the workers had all the protective gear.

He'd come home and she'd go to the backyard and shake his "dusty" clothes out so her wash machine wouldn't get filled with the particles.

Such a waste.

I grew up less than twenty minutes from Manville NJ - named after its, at the time, main employer Johns Manville Corporation.

Growing up in the '70s, former employees said that back in the '40s and '50s asbestos dust and fibers used to blow out of the factor and over the town "like snow."

I still have a Johns Manville writing pad (those little promotional ones they used to give out) tucked away.

 

[Fading Fast]

That's how I've always understood it. Stable asbestos isn't the problem -- it's "friable" asbestos, the kind that flakes into fibrous bits that can cause problems. I've heard of people flying into a panic when they discover that an old radio or appliance has an asbestos pad inside it designed to protect the cabinet from heat, but if you leave it be it's not going to be a problem.

Wasn't there a scare about hand-held hair dryers having asbestos in the '70s? Seems to me I remember my mother checking a serial number on hers versus some list for just that reason - but it's a very sketchy memory.

 

[sheeplady]

I grew up less than twenty minutes from Manville NJ - named after its, at the time, main employer Johns Manville Corporation.

Growing up in the '70s, former employees said that back in the '40s and '50s asbestos dust and fibers used to blow out of the factor and over the town "like snow."

I still have a Johns Manville writing pad (those little promotional ones they used to give out) tucked away.

I've heard that story (like snow) from someone when I was a kid... but never knew where it was.

My grandmother (at one time) used asbestos snow to decorate for the holidays (like the wizard of Oz stuff... around the tree and cardboard houses). She also wrapped her tree in fiberglass tinsel (which cut up her hands despite gloves). Both of which my mother said were gorgeous.

The abestos ceiling in our former home''s kitchen likely saved our lives... the pot lights in the drop ceiling had faulty wiring and the abestos ceiling above was scorched.

 

[tonyb]

I've heard that story (like snow) from someone when I was a kid... but never knew where it was.

My grandmother (at one time) used asbestos snow to decorate for the holidays (like the wizard of Oz stuff... around the tree and cardboard houses). She also wrapped her tree in fiberglass tinsel (which cut up her hands despite gloves). Both of which my mother said were gorgeous.

The abestos ceiling in our former home''s kitchen likely saved our lives... the pot lights in the drop ceiling had faulty wiring and the abestos ceiling above was scorched.

I've been told of asbestos fibers "like snow" in the shipyards back during WWII, when they couldn't crank out those ships fast enough.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Fire curtain at the abandoned National Theatre in Detroit. I would imagine this to be the very definition of "friable asbestos." We didn't have such a curtain in our place, but most bigger theatres with full stages were required to have them, and they had to be shown to the audience at least once per show.

 

[sheeplady]

Nice.

Apparently there is a "controversial" report out now that 66% of cancer cases are due to random mutations, only 29% due to environmental exposure or lifestyle habits, and 5% due to genetics. (It's controversial because a lot of people want to think, "I'll never get cancer cause I eat my kale, THEY got cancer because they eat hamburgers." Nope, 40% of us will get cancer...)

I think all this asbestos exposure that people regularly had is a testament to that. Being exposed to asbestos is a risk factor for mesothelioma, but some people can be exposed only a little and get it while others are fine. The thing is you don't know which you are... so keep safe.

 

[belfastboy]

All this lead paint talk reminded me of a "so trivial ..." little corruption event that happened during our renovation. Because our apartment was built in 1928, to get our restoration plan approved by the NYC DOB, we had to have an asbestos inspection.

That seemed reasonable to me as we know it is very dangerous to breath that in and during demolition, we wouldn't want to release that into the air. Of course, we had our fingers crossed that we'd pass as asbestos remediation is very expensive.

The DOB required us to hire a NYC licensed asbestos inspection company for $900 (which I had to pay before he'd come - checked, they all worked this way for the exact same fee) - sounded high to me, but I figured it would be very comprehensive as we were demoing one bathroom, one kitchen and doing some other work throughout that would break into some walls (all of this was on the NYC architect approved plans I had to submit to the DOB before hiring the asbestos inspector - also not cheap).

On the day of the inspection, I met the inspector - nice enough guy - who came into the apartment, took three random one-inch deep wall samples that were not from the rooms being demo'ed. I mentioned this to him, he shrugged, put the samples in a bag, told me I'd get a report in a few weeks and left (was in and out in under 10 minutes).

I "passed" this complete nonsense of an inspection. Any one want to bet that $900 fee isn't part of a some graft / kickback scheme to someone in gov't? Being worried about the contractor's team, I mentioned all this to the contractor and he said, "good you passed, it's a pain if we have to do remediation." I said, but I don't want your guys to get sick. Again, "don't worry about, we'll wear masks." Which they half did, half didn't.

This is and example of a perfect partnership of corruption between the licensed private inspection companies and the gov't officials licensing them. I got cheated out of money and the workers it should have protected (and others in the building) didn't get protected.

I really don't know much about Lily Tomlin at all, but in my mind, she is a hero for having one of the best quotes ever:

"No matter how cynical you become, it's never enough to keep up." - Lily Tomlin

I work for a consulting engineering firm that specializes in indoor air quality and hazardous materials inspections. We do HazMat inspections regularly for renovations and tear downs. We are in Canada so the comparison is not exact but the $900 fee does not seem out of line. His performance was perhaps perfunctory and could/should have done a more professional job in discerning where he sampled. But having said that there are specific areas, materials that are likely ACM (asbestos carrying materials). If the standards are similar for NY state as they are here, he as a licenced inspector complied with the standards/protocol. Why would he jeopardize his professional standing for the sake of a few dollars cost to sample?. I would suggest that if the 3 samples came back negative there is a very very good chance your home is safe to renovate. If they had found ACM, remediation is extremely expensive and you may have avoided upwards of an additional $10K in costs. Remember the inspection company incurs, state licensing fees, professional registration fees, errors/ommissions/liability insurance and the lab fees to analyse the samples.

 

[belfastboy]

Fire curtain at the abandoned National Theatre in Detroit. I would imagine this to be the very definition of "friable asbestos." We didn't have such a curtain in our place, but most bigger theatres with full stages were required to have them, and they had to be shown to the audience at least once per show.

My take on asbestos is; it is like hot sauce; for a long period they "put that stuff in everything!" It was a cheap and effective building enhancement material.

 

[ChrisB]

There are many types of asbestos, not all equally hazardous. Most asbestos used (90% ?) is chrysotile, not considered to be hazardous for low level exposure. Amphibole is the type that is the real danger, I don't know where or what it was used for.

 

[Fading Fast]

I work for a consulting engineering firm that specializes in indoor air quality and hazardous materials inspections. We do HazMat inspections regularly for renovations and tear downs. We are in Canada so the comparison is not exact but the $900 fee does not seem out of line. His performance was perhaps perfunctory and could/should have done a more professional job in discerning where he sampled. But having said that there are specific areas, materials that are likely ACM (asbestos carrying materials). If the standards are similar for NY state as they are here, he as a licenced inspector complied with the standards/protocol. Why would he jeopardize his professional standing for the sake of a few dollars cost to sample?. I would suggest that if the 3 samples came back negative there is a very very good chance your home is safe to renovate. If they had found ACM, remediation is extremely expensive and you may have avoided upwards of an additional $10K in costs. Remember the inspection company incurs, state licensing fees, professional registration fees, errors/ommissions/liability insurance and the lab fees to analyse the samples.

As posted here http://www.thefedoralounge.com/thre...lly-ticks-you-off.81430/page-285#post-2229627 thank you for the education and I openly acknowledge I was wrong. And kudos to Fedora's membership for having so many informed professionals willing to share their knowledge. Best, FF

 

[belfastboy]

Clearly you know what you are talking about and I'm happy to stand corrected. Does it make sense to you that his three sample weren't even from the areas / from the rooms where work was to be done? Other than that, what you said fits in perfectly with how the sampling was done and explains the cost. Hence, in addition to acknowledging I was wrong, I will acknowledge that my Lily Tomlin "cynicism" quote does not apply for this one. Thank you for the enlightenment.

My wife and I share a similar saying to Miss Lily's...."Just when I think I have become toooo cynical I discover I am in fact not cynical enough." Not sure why he did not take samples directly from the area to be renovated. I treat my job as similar to detective or CSI analysis. If my job is to identify in order to declare an area to be "safe" to reno I make certain I have sampled in the areas most likely to be ACM. It is my professional responsibility to declare it safe for the sake of all that will come in contact during the reno. Having said that if the materials he sampled were similar and contiguous then he may have thought that what he sampled was sufficiently representative. We quote a job based on the likely number of samples to be taken. My boss, a man of great integrity, always gives me the green light to take as many samples as I think necessary in order to clear the site in good conscience. We have avoided the land mine of law suits but the threat exists. If a contractor bases his bid on our clearance and then discovers ACM we could be liable for damages (hence the insurance) to cover his greatly increased costs to remediate.

 

[vitanola]

Clearly you know what you are talking about and I'm happy to stand corrected. Does it make sense to you that his three sample weren't even from the areas / from the rooms where work was to be done? Other than that, what you said fits in perfectly with how the sampling was done and explains the cost. Hence, in addition to acknowledging I was wrong, I will acknowledge that my Lily Tomlin "cynicism" quote does not apply for this one. Thank you for the enlightenment.

The technician probably looked for areas which might have been patched, for they would be most likely to be "hot". If they were indeed "hot", then that would suggest that more extensive testing was required.

The technician was remiss, however, in not explaining all of this to you. That explanation is part of the job. It reassures the property owner that he is getting value, and can educate the property owner about possible future hazards.