Show us your Guns!

[indycop]

Indycop: Great finish on that Garand. Looks like a new stock and handguard. A buddy gave me a Garand, and I later got one through the CMP. Both had filthy finishes. I wanted to clean them up and refinish without it looking like they had been refinished. They came out real nice. The new finish is indistinguishable from the old, except that it is clean. It appears shiny in the photo, but it isn't. It is a satin/oiled finish, just like the original.

Very nice!

 

[up196]

Interesting Colt

Here are two pictures of an early Colt's Detective Special that I recently acquired. The Colt's Archive letter indicates it was shipped as a 2" .38 in July of 1927 to one P. von Frantzuis (an uncommon name; I believe the correct spelling is actually von Frantzius).

Peter von Frantzius was the dealer who supplied one, and possibly both, of the Thompsons used at the S.M.C. Cartage Co. garage on February 14, 1929, as well as the Detective Special used on Chicago reporter Jake Lingle in 1930.

In the second picture, you can just make out the initials "WBR" on the frame between the top of the grip and the hammer, as if it was marked as evidence at one time.

If only it could talk, I suppose it would keep its mouth shut, ya hear!

 

[Levallois]

up196,

Beautiful little DS you have there - is it marked "Detective Special" or just "38 Special?" The reason that I ask is that I have two pre-detective specials from the mid to late 1920s that were built before Colt used DS as a model name that look identical to the very early DSs that Colt made. Here is the Detroit Police marked one:

Also, is that a Police Special Remington Model 8 rifle that you are holding in your avatar?

John

 

[up196]

Nice DS you have there yourself, Levallois.

The revolver I pictured is marked "38 SPECIAL" on the left side of the barrel, with no other markings on the right side or top.

It's also made on the earlier, pre-1926 style frame, having a smooth, rounded topstrap instead of the flattened and serrated style, and has a smooth trigger and the smaller grip profile (bottom of the grip is only 1 1/2" front to back, not 1 3/4" like the later revolvers).

It's also interesting that, while the serial number is shown in the published tables as being a 1928 manufacture, the Colt's Archive letter shows it was shipped on July 28, 1927, and refers to it as a "Detective Special."

As to the avatar, it's a Remington 81 fitted with a Police magazine from the Peace Officer Equipment Company of St. Joseph, Missouri. The rifle, however, is not marked as a Police rifle, and the serial numbers of the magazine and rifle do not match (they are only off by 54, though).

 

[shortbow]

Years ago I had a Remy Mod 8 in .35, a really nice piece of work, a testament to Browning's genius. But the mag was not detachable. Did the 81's come with detachable mags from the factory or was that a modification? Seems to me I 'member reading once that the Ranger that shot the hell out of Bonny and Clyde was packing either one of the above gats with a high-cap magazine.

 

[DeaconKC]

I'll double check, but I am 99% sure Hamer used a Remington 8 in .35 Remington in the incident.

 

[shortbow]

Sounds good Deacon, let me know. Wonder how they got the original mag out of the gun? If he did indeed use a hi cap?

 

[up196]

The Hamer rifle

Legend does indeed say that Frank Hamer used a .35 Remington, serial number 10045, on that morning of May 23, 1934, although there is some debate about that.

It was supposedly fitted with a removable, extended magazine by the Peace Officer Equipment of St. Joseph, Missouri that held 20 rounds (these magazines actually hold 15, not 20).

To fit the magazine, the rifle stock is removed, followed by the trigger plate (trigger guard and magazine). The fixed, 5 shot magazine is removed from the trigger plate from the top and the gun is re-assembled. The extended magazine can then be inserted; it has a "block" on its front edge with a notch that engages the front of the trigger plate and it is then pivoted back and up until the latch on the rear of the magazine itself engages a lip at the rear of the trigger plate.

It's much like putting a magazine in an AK-47 style rifle.

One of the other posse members, Prentiss Oakley, used a .35 Remington Model 8, serial number 48990, that he had borrowed from the town dentist for the manhunt. There exist photos, taken just after the ambush, which show a Remington Model 8, a BAR and three semi-automatic shotguns on the roof of the Barrow car. It is presumed that these are posse weapons, as they are not grouped with the weapons found in the car, but that's only five, leaving what the sixth member used open to conjecture.

 

[shortbow]

Hey, thanks a lot for that info, not only does it answer the question from a historical point of view, but is great for possible future reference. Why Remington didn't make it originally with a detachable magazine is a mystery to me.

 

[John in Covina]

Why Remington didn't make it originally with a detachable magazine is a mystery to me.

***

It could be that it was in response to looking at a posible military market. Early on detatchable magazines were regarded with suspiscion by the military as lost magazines would render a weapon useless. Automatics were also viewed with suspiscion as ammo wasters, the thinking was that the troops would use their rifles as bullett hoses instead of using aimed fire. Figure it took WWII to show that detatchable mags were worthwhile. See the Beretta updates to the M1 rifle to make the BM59 which is similar to the M14, the detatchable mag was very much welcomed at that point.

 

[shortbow]

Well, that got me thinking. Puts me in mind of the magazine cutoff in some of the early bolt actions and the captured mag in some of the early Lee's.

 

[carebear]

Well, that got me thinking. Puts me in mind of the magazine cutoff in some of the early bolt actions and the captured mag in some of the early Lee's.

The idea on the mag cutoff was to promote aimed single shots for most use but preserve the ability for a "mad minute" if necessary.

The same reasoning behind offering semi and full (burst) fire on the newer rifles. If you keep the guys on semi until they "need" it, you prevent mag dumps at shadows. But that's really a (however practical) mechanical solution to a training problem.

 

[DeaconKC]

An interesting thread on Hmaer going on right now at S&Wforum http://smith-wessonforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/500103904/m/8351047

 

[KittyT]

These are not mine! I saw this yesterday in a museum in Guanajuato, Mexico. It dates from sometime during the 19th century. My dad is curious what type of action that is - it looks rather complicated and he's interested in any information that anyone might have. This pistol was displayed next to an old Remington Rolling Block.

Also, do any of you historic gun enthusiasts know if it's still possible to find .25 rimfire ammo or .22 auto ammo for old Winchesters?

 

[shortbow]

Kitty, that is a hard one. Never seen anything like it, can't say anything definitive without handling it, so I'm gonna take a couple of guesses. The breech block seems to be cammed up and down by the lever on top of it. It seems to be in the up position in the photo.

You will notice there is no firing pin on the hammer. Unless it has been removed, this may signal that it is a pin-fire of some sort, but again, hard to tell without handling the piece.

Secondly, from way out there, it could be an early air pistol. Air guns were around way earlier than most people are aware, at least as early as the Napoleonic wars. I'm thinking the octagon barrel looking part of the assembly might actually an air chamber, that long skinny bit on top, the barrel. Various modern air pistols use this configuration.

As I said, just guesses, but perhaps it will spur further (and more accurate) speculation. As to the ammunition, you will have to hunt the gun shows for those.

Luck.

 

[conrad5157]

Kitty, that is a hard one. Never seen anything like it, can't say anything definitive without handling it, so I'm gonna take a couple of guesses.The breech block seems to be cammed up and down by the lever on top of it. It seems to be in the up position in the photo.

If you look at the 2nd & 3rd pictures, it looks like the wire right behind the hinge on the top assemlbly acts as a spring. My best guess would be that you press down on the block, then use the thumb lever as a lock. When the hammer comes in contact with the nib(2nd picture), it automatically releases the block back to the up position. Also note what looks like the end of a ramrod(1st picture) protruding at the end of the top assembly.

So now, how does it fire? It's hard to see but in the last picture in front of the block, is that the nipple where you would put the cap? Not sure.

Nice find Kitty.

 

[shortbow]

To me, that protrusion looks like a locking device for the breech block that fits under the hammer when it is down.

 

[rumblefish]

Odd.. Look at the leaf sight. It looks as though the lever on top would completely obscure it when sighting down the top tube to the blade...[huh]
The block seems to be raised in the photos, the hammer/locking device(?) looks like it fits right behind it when it's lowered and locks up at the sear at the bottom of the block. What conrad referred to as a ramrod struck me first a small muzzle. Maybe an air gun, as shortbow guessed???

 

[carebear]

From what I can find no one has run a batch of .25 rimfire (for the Stevens?) since 1941. I saw prices like $200 a round from collectors.

I did find this though for the .22 Winchester auto.

http://www.ammo-one.com/22WIN-AUTO.html

I'll try to remember to post the Mexican pistol on some gunboards I go to. There's never anything too obscure for real gun nuts.

 

[KittyT]

Thanks for the info, guys. My dad is extremely curious about this pistol!

Also, thanks for the info on the ammo. My dad's been looking and I told him I'd inquire with some awesome gun nerds