Sex in media boosts teen promiscuity-study

[Bebop]

Society does not need religion to do the right thing. You do not have to replace religion with anything more than do what you have been taught is right. That is what people do anyway. Christianity has taken basic common sense and made it into a religion. I don't think we need religion in our society in order to reduce rape, murder and crime in general. We need common sense taught to our children. Facts should not be clouded by bumper sticker phrases from The Bible that have thousands of interpretations. I think we underestimate people when we think they need religion in order to be good for our society. That is a big, fat, pat on the head of someone you think can't be good and needs more of a reason to be good than good people do. On an individual basis, if you need to believe in something in order to have morals and convictions, that's fine. That is human behaviour. We can't imagine this is it. It feels alot better to feel positive that we are here for a reason not yet known than to take things at face value and admit all we know is what is real.

Jamespowers, freedom from religion does not mean you can't wear a crusifix. It means the government does not make it's decisions based on religion. I think we all know of our President telling us he has made decisions based on "talking to God". That is way too similar to the Taliban thought process. Of course our Presidents desicions have not been as horrible as the Taliban decisions and I in no way want to compare the Taliban to our President but when decisions are made with religion as the basis, it seems just as wacky. That is one of the ways I would say we don't have freedom FROM religion. We should have a society that uses common sense and calculations to make serious decisions, not religious beliefs.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

What to do without religion ...

Who knows? It is there in the foreground. It is unavoidable - at least in the US. In the Uk it takes more of a back seat.

I think the best way to answer this question is to turn a critical eye on northern Europe, where religion in many countries has been in the death-throes for many a year - dwindling congregations and the perception (by youth and others) of archaism, or worse yet (for the religious structures y strictures) anachronism. WWII changed alot of things. My grandfather never attended church again (except weddings, funerals etc.) after his experiences in the war. I believe this was also the case for many more people.

Religion in Britain, so far as i can tell, is largely a spent force (the Brits may be able to inform me otherwise). My local church gets 25 people - from a population of ~7000 - every Sunday (they used to have a congregation of around 300). Young people, en masse, stay away. Is this because British yoof are less prepared than ever to accept without proof or evidences? Are people in general moving away from the supernatural, the notion that "there is more to this world than the visible, and you are not here by accident."? (quote John in Covina) Science tells us that everything happens by accident; that the universe is chaotic and has no purpose.

Or are people just sick of being told every sunday that they're sinners who're going to hell?

bk

 

[Section10]

Confused by bumper stickers? You guys are too much fun. It always makes me feel so much better when a non-believer speaks his piece. You guys are a boost to my faith. In a sense you are an asset to it. I'll fully admit society needs some people who believe like you do.
Whenever the discussion turns to which behavior is right we cannot help but get into morality issues and right behind that is religion because that is what genuine morality is based on. To say we need to be taught our morals better is just whistling in the dark. Whose morals and whose teaching? Apparently whoever it is that happens to be in power.
You know, I'm not entirely fond of the idea either of Christians in high places of authority. I don't think Christianity functions very well in such an environment. As I said before, it is like salt. It seasons society. None of us would like a meal consisting of pure salt. Including me! Christianity is meant to take over peoples lives, but not their countries. It requires a mix of people both for and against to function at its best. Besides, unbelievers make it easier for me to see how good I've got it.

 

[mysterygal]

To say, all we need to have is to be taught common sense and leave the bible/religion out of it...yet you say that is all the bible is, is about common sense..so who's common sense do you want taught? As we have been discussing, parents have been taking a back seat to teaching their children the necessary tools to succeed in this life. Do we allow it for the teachers? It is simply not thier job to raise other people's children, they are being paid for teaching kids subjects, ie: math, science, art. Looking around at most people today, I see a serious lack of common sense, it has flown out the window.

 

[jake431]

Can I ask someone here who is religious to answer these questions for me - is religion a precondition for morality? Can a person only be moral is they have found religion? Are human beings not capable of defining moral behavior?

To me, a non-Christian, I don't believe that it is - I believe that relgion has shaped morality, but that it was not a precondition. But then, I also don't believe mankinds "soul" needed to be saved, and, to me, logically speaking, human beings are perfectly capable of designing their own morality without the existance of a God. The fact that would make all human behavior essentially arbitrary doesn't bother me. I feel that religion, the faith that someone is looking out for their specific group of believers, all to often hampers people - I mean wouldn't it be great for people to believe they had the power to determine right from wrong without a spiritual basis? Wouldn't that be uplifting to believe that humanity had the power to control itself?

Let me state this - I am not a moral relativist - I do believe that some acts are not okay - period. I just don't believe God needed to tell me that to believe it.

-Jake

 

[herringbonekid]

As for Europe, the whole of Europe is a dead end backwater. And the US is starting down that road as well. You want to see the future? Look to China and the far east. And you can bet Christianity will be there as well.

thanks for that. most enlightening.

 

[Bebop]

To say, all we need to have is to be taught common sense and leave the bible/religion out of it...yet you say that is all the bible is, is about common sense..so who's common sense do you want taught? As we have been discussing, parents have been taking a back seat to teaching their children the necessary tools to succeed in this life. Do we allow it for the teachers? It is simply not thier job to raise other people's children, they are being paid for teaching kids subjects, ie: math, science, art. Looking around at most people today, I see a serious lack of common sense, it has flown out the window.

I would never say that the Bible is about common sense. I said Christianity took common sense and made it into a religion. This has nothing to do with school teachers teaching our children instead of parents.. I also see that common sense has flown out the window.

 

[Bebop]

Confused by bumper stickers? You guys are too much fun. It always makes me feel so much better when a non-believer speaks his piece. You guys are a boost to my faith. In a sense you are an asset to it. I'll fully admit society needs some people who believe like you do.
Whenever the discussion turns to which behavior is right we cannot help but get into morality issues and right behind that is religion because that is what genuine morality is based on. To say we need to be taught our morals better is just whistling in the dark. Whose morals and whose teaching? Apparently whoever it is that happens to be in power.
You know, I'm not entirely fond of the idea either of Christians in high places of authority. I don't think Christianity functions very well in such an environment. As I said before, it is like salt. It seasons society. None of us would like a meal consisting of pure salt. Including me! Christianity is meant to take over peoples lives, but not their countries. It requires a mix of people both for and against to function at its best. Besides, unbelievers make it easier for me to see how good I've got it.

As for Europe, the whole of Europe is a dead end backwater. And the US is starting down that road as well. You want to see the future? Look to China and the far east. And you can bet Christianity will be there as well.

And I just love it when "you believers", as you like to put it, take everything anyone that says they don't believe says and use it as a stepping stone to telling us how much better you are than the non-believers. My point about no freedom from religion here. You also are useful in society at least for the entertainment factor.lol What bumper stickers are you talking about? I said using the quotes from the bible in "bumper-sticker fashion". Please read my post again before you start getting insulted and start lashing out.

Having morals is just another way of saying "knowing right from wrong" where it is not legislated. Right does not come from religion anymore than wrong does. Using your brain to seperate wrong from right is alot better than just parroting what you have read.

Christianity will be in China partially because it already is.[huh]

Europe a dead end backwater? Because of what? No religion on every corner? That is what makes them leaders in social evolvement. Now you are just trying to make us laugh.lol :eusa_clap

Believers like you make me thankful that I can use logic to live my life. If it wasn't for "you guys", I would think there really is a rabbit in the hat.

 

[Mr Nick]

Interesting Posts

I'm relatively new to FL and just read all the posts to this thread. Very interesting opinions all. I have a little different take on the issue. We were created to live a certain way. It was planned out. It was and is a part of a bigger plan. Any time we get outside the plan, then the outcome is not as good as it could have been. Rules, guidelines, laws, whatever you call them, are inplace because the desire was to keep people from going through bad things or difficulties someone else had already experienced, or the original designer gave us the proper instructions to start with. It is a fact that you do indeed reap what you sow. No one can reasonably dispute that fact (sometimes the timing of the harvest is at question).
Also a lot of talk about religion. I don't like the word. I once read that religion was man's attempt to reach God and Jesus is God's Way of reaching man. The whole issue of teen pregnancy is in many ways directly related to alcohol and various other issues that plague society. We have deviated from the original plan of how our lives are to be lived. It's not about rules. It's about relationships.
Someone in an earlier post said something about physical excersice with your kids helped them with some of these issues. I'd guess it was more likely that the time the parents spent with the kids made the difference. One of the things that no one else talked about in comparing the "golden years" to today is the fact that children and parents used to spend much more time with one another than they do now. Mothers stayed home more (most homes only had one car, Dad took it to work). People valued the needs of the family over the desires of the individual more. There was a commitment to each other and the family unit. That resulted in more security for all family members which led to less "risky behavior" to fill the gaps of need and acceptance that encourage our young people to engage in alcohol abuse, teen sex, gang activity and so on.
The other issue is that God loves everyone! He wants a personal relationship with every person and it is solely based on love, not rules. I didn't mean to get so long winded here. I just thought there were a few points that appeared to be left out.
Oh, one more thing, for all you 20 somethings and younger, I used to think I had it all figured out too. You'll find out that the older you get the less black and white many issues become. The truth never changes but your perception of it will.
All in love !!!

Nick

 

[John in Covina]

These things happened of themselves - Pharoah

Science tells us that everything happens by accident; that the universe is chaotic and has no purpose.bk

*******
Actually a lot of Science tells us that the universe is supposed to be moving to disorder, not order and organization. It is hard to imagine enthropy and chaos accidently coming up with the complex sytems and life with all of their intricacies as working systems.

A comparison would be to have a huge drum filled with watch parts and spining it long enough to come up with not only a working watch but one that reproduces itself.

In the world we can point at all sorts of things and say who made it, but the most marvelous and complex universe, point at that and many can't believe a divine entity made it. It seems imposible and yet the Big Bang theory seem implausible too, with either nothing, or a something suddenly exploding into everything. Then over time thru a series of accidents, chaos and enthropy bring order out of disorder, and a planet is formed that is like in the 3 little bears, not too big or too small, not too hot or too cold, not too close to the sun but not too far, not too dry or too wet, etc. and life of itself, arranges itself, and sustains itself, without getting wiped out or just staying at some level like virus or ameba or sealife or lizards, and continues to organize to man, Homo Sapiens Sapiens. Both are a stretch of the imagination I suppose.

At least we here and able to discuss it.

 

[Section10]

Bebop. When it comes to bumper stickers I did misread and I stand corrected.

Can a non-believer be a moral person? Yes, he can and he can be a fine citizen as well. But the source of all what we call good morals comes from God. You say that a difference exists between good and bad and it does. The reason it does is because good and bad really exist as standards independent of societies. That's why we can make judgements regarding them and that's why we can judge the 'rightness' of other people's behavior according to how far or close to these standards their behavior comes.
Are good morals found in countries that have no God? They often are, but morals happened to be more in line with the topic of this thread. In fact, morals is only one lesser facet of Christianity but Christianity was never the original issue here. It just kind of evolved that way. The gospel is really not at all about holding someone to a moral standard. You don't get saved by being good.
We generally agree that morality is good. We don't agree on its source.

As for Christianity in China. I understand that it is doing quite well there. Certainly better than it is doing in Europe.

 

[Katt in Hat]

How Do You "Know" That This Is So?

"But the source of all what we call good morals comes from God."

Faith, Early Training, What?

Moreover, there are so very many religions practiced in the world. What of those who devoutly follow them?

 

[MK]

fftopic:

 

[Katt in Hat]

This entire thread is filled with Posts such as mine.

fftopic:

1. It has just occurred to me that your comment was just meant to display the Burke quotation and was not directed at me at all.
2.So I have added these two sentences to my original post...
---------------------------------------------------------------

Please explain your reason for the singling out of my post as being "fftopic:" .

There are over 150 posts here. The discussion had moved far from "Teens, sex and the media" many posts ago.

 

[Lena_Horne]

fftopic:

Thanks MK. I already tried to steer it back once, I hope you can do it.

Someone in an earlier post said something about physical excersice with your kids helped them with some of these issues. I'd guess it was more likely that the time the parents spent with the kids made the difference. One of the things that no one else talked about in comparing the "golden years" to today is the fact that children and parents used to spend much more time with one another than they do now. Mothers stayed home more (most homes only had one car, Dad took it to work). People valued the needs of the family over the desires of the individual more. There was a commitment to each other and the family unit. That resulted in more security for all family members which led to less "risky behavior" to fill the gaps of need and acceptance that encourage our young people to engage in alcohol abuse, teen sex, gang activity and so on.

I especially liked this part of your post. There was a lot more concentrated time spent steering children in the right direction and the all around acknowlegement that when your children when out and made a bad name for themselves the whole family was affected. It meant too much permissive behavior and not enough discipline.

Now I'm not asking girls to remain chaste and "pure" as that would infringe on their right to choose but I would ask that someone let them know that they stand to get hurt either physically or emotionally if they aren't careful. Relationships can exist perfectly well without the frame of marriage. Perhaps its a general lack of trust in men being willing to grow up these days. But that's another can of "perpetual child" worms. But girls are (sometimes) being raised not to expect some measure of maturity from a guy as well as concern for their well-being. And its not being expected from boys until it is far too late and they've made too many mistakes.

You shouldn't be in the position where you're already hanging on to an illegitimate child before you realize that your behavior is out of bounds.

In a survey taken a few years ago it was found that 34% of college-age men would rape if they had the chance and knew that there was no way to get caught. That is entirely unacceptable as a mindset. But that seems to be what's expected. With boys sex is for fun, with girls... Well its something else.

I wonder what could be done at this point to try to reverse that trend.

L_H

 

[Lena_Horne]

1. It has just occurred to me that your comment was just meant to display the Burke quotation and was not directed at me at all.
2.So I have added these two sentences to my original post...
---------------------------------------------------------------

Please explain your reason for the singling out of my post as being "fftopic:" .

There are over 150 posts here. The discussion had moved far from "Teens, sex and the media" many posts ago.

I'm pretty sure he meant "in general."

L_H

 

[Katt in Hat]

I don't know about that...I would rather it be the quote.

"All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke

We shall see, in the fullness of time...

 

[John in Covina]

Who can up hold the Law perfectly in though word and deed.

And I just love it when "you believers", as you like to put it, take everything anyone that says they don't believe says and use it as a stepping stone to telling us how much better you are than the non-believers.

***********

Here is a fallicy, this belief that Christians think they are better than everyone else. If you meet people that profess that as Christians, they are better than everyone else, well they are not, they are being either mislead aand are on the wrong track. It doesn't hold well with Christian doctrine.

Actually, Christians (Should) know they are just as bad as everyone else, their failure to "be good" is as complete as the foulest criminal on death row. They know however that repentence brings absolution and they try to abstain from sin. However as motal men made from flesh and bone Christians know they are bound to sin, so their life is one of continual repentence.

Who can uphold the whole of the law, in thought word and deed. If you make one transgression error in one jot or tiddle, you are as guilty as if you broke the whole of the law. Therefore, no mortal man can uphold it perfectly. But repentence is a key, because God does not despise a broken and contrite heart. The penitent man.

 

[John in Covina]

10 Commandments time!

"But the source of all what we call good morals comes from God." Faith, Early Training, What?

******
The movie "The Ten Commandments" usually gets on TV about this time as both Passover and Easter are just days away. The Charlton Heston version from Cecil B DeMille is an epic. This is one of those lush technicolor movies!:eusa_clap

Anyway, as the story is in the movie, they play a little fast and loose with some stuff but it hits a lot of the major points. There is a part in the movie that does call from the story, where Moses after bringing the set of tablets with the Law written on them, tells the people that the Lord has written the Law on the hearts of all men. So from one point of view, this is the Divine inspiration. Those Commandments that are directed to the way we are to treat one another are generally recognized as "Good Rules" to live by in most of the societies that have been establish, both now and in the the past. Some will see it as a Natural version of knowing right from wrong.

 

[John in Covina]

Common

I would never say that the Bible is about common sense. I said Christianity took common sense and made it into a religion. This has nothing to do with school teachers teaching our children instead of parents.. I also see that common sense has flown out the window.

*********
Many people feel that Christianity is radical in the way that one is to treat others. Loving your enemies, loving you neighbor as yourself.

SOmetimes people get thins mixed up and so many tie themselves to a system of works, of: "what you have to do for God to get his blessings".
I would caution anyone to examine carefully when you hear a statement concerning worship that has the order of action as: IF YOU, THEN GOD!
It has it backwards. The reality of it is that God has done the hard stuff, it is covered by "It is Finished" statement. Then you may consider that God does not need your good works, your neighbor does.

Best regards!