Morning dress

[Dr Kilroy]

I assume you would only wear spats if you didn't the button boots / galosh oxfords that you recommended? ^_^

By no means! I always wear spats with day dresses. The button boots/galosh oxfords do not look the same - spats are just more decorative.

Is your idea of an ascot something that's usually paisly and worn inside the collar? Originally, an ascot tie was this:

I actually mean the cravat you meant. I am not sure what is the correct British name for that.


Best regards, Dr

 

[Salieri]

Hang on, you mean you would actually wear spats over the top of button boots?

On the second point, I wasn't disagreeing with you, just illustrating your point for SLOshank, who was surprised that an ascot would be considered formal. In the states, you see, they call these ascots:

 

[Dr Kilroy]

Yes, I mean wearing spats over the top of button boots. This sounds silly, I know.

Best regards, Dr

 

[SLOshank]

So if I were to put on a simple white tuxedo shirt sans pleats or excuse me -- ruffles, a coordinated four in hand silk tie (the same sort one would wear with the most formal of business suits) and a pair of AE Park Avenues with some dressy solid black socks all I need to make the most basic morning dress work is a black cutaway coat, a waistcoast and a pair of grey striped pantaloons (aside from things like braces and a hat)?

 

[Dr Kilroy]

Not exactly. Morning dress shirt should have a detachable, stiff, white collar, either wing (only with white shirt body) or turndown (can be with white, white-blue-striped, blue, champagne shirt body). Otherwise, you are correct.

Plus, striped trousers are not technically pantaloons.

Best regards, Dr

 

[Salieri]

Well, a stiff, detachable collar is 'better' but I wouldn't say it's strictly essential. I would say that getting the right shirt and collar is something to worry about after you've got all the basics sorted. A plain white turndown should be fine to start off with.

Incidentally, in spite of what many people think about pleated shirts they were actually worn quite a lot with morning dress in the 30s.

 

[Qirrel]

Plus, striped trousers are not technically pantaloons.

Considering the fact that the term "pants" stems from the archaic "pantaloons", and that "pants" (U.S. English) is synonymous with (British English) "trousers", then we can say that striped pantaloons are the same things as striped trousers.

 

[Dr Kilroy]

I agree that pleated shirts look good with morning dress and this is mentioned in 30's and 20's dress charts. Nowadays it is rather rarely mentioned, as stiff front shirts for anything else than a dress or dinner suit.

Best regards, Dr

 

[Lokar]

Yes, but when pantaloons were used the items they described looked nothing like modern trousers.

pan·ta·loon (pnt-ln)
n.

a. Men's wide breeches extending from waist to ankle, worn especially in England in the late 17th century. Often used in the plural.
b. Tight trousers extending from waist to ankle with straps passing under the instep, worn especially in the 19th century. Often used in the plural.

 

[Charlie Huang]

Formal morning dress: black morning coat (without braiding) PL, black SB waiscoat (same cloth) (optionally with white slips), cashmere stripes, black socks, white tunic shirt with fold down stiff collar, plain silver tie, etc.

For funerals, substitute the cashmere stripes for black trousers and remove white slips, replace silver tie with black.

Shirt: never use a modern pleated soft evening shirt for morning dress.

Pantaloons: they are shorter and tighter fitting than trousers.

 

[Charlie Huang]

What I (and my friends) wore to Friday's street party (silk topper was stored under the table at that point in time which I later wore afterwards):

When I was in Hyde Park earlier watching the big screens, there were plenty of people who wanted to take photos of me.

 

[Dr Kilroy]

What sort of pleated shirt is acceptable for morning dress then? Or is it inappropriate at all?

By the way, you looked great on the royal wedding! However, I would replace the black waistcoat with something more festive.

Best regards, Dr

 

[billyspew]

What I (and my friends) wore to Friday's street party (silk topper was stored under the table at that point in time which I later wore afterwards):

When I was in Hyde Park earlier watching the big screens, there were plenty of people who wanted to take photos of me.

Looking great Charlie. I assume it was an NSC thing you attended?

 

[Charlie Huang]

Looking great Charlie. I assume it was an NSC thing you attended?

Partly organised by a few members and attended by a few more.

What sort of pleated shirt is acceptable for morning dress then? Or is it inappropriate at all?

By the way, you looked great on the royal wedding! However, I would replace the black waistcoat with something more festive.

Best regards, Dr

TBH, unless you know what you are doing, do not go down the pleated shirt route. The shirt in question is a bib front on a 'grandad style' shirt with very wide pleats of around 3" or so spacing and not the very piffy thin ones.

Black waistcoat: I do not think that a black waistcoat isn't festive enough. Besides, I was wearing houndstooth trousers.

 

[Charlie Huang]

Found out that Beckham's topper was made by Philip Treacy, a milliner... No wonder it looked like fancy dress...

 

[SLOshank]

Can anyone here suggest a supplier for a black morning dress coat and a pair of those grey striped breeches? I'm not going to pay Brooks prices. I'm looking for the insider's deal for a suit I will 3-4 times/year at most. Thanks a lot.

P.S. When can call boots be properly worn with morning dress? Thanks again.

 

[dhermann1]

Re: Hound's tooth trousers. That's really cool. I saw a picture from 1915 on Shorpy.com of a guy in morning coat and hound's tooth trousers. A real eye opener. I'd like a little more explanation on the subject of proper shirt.

 

[Dr Kilroy]

Again, striped trousers are technically not breeches.

As for button boots or galosh oxfords, you can wear them anytime you want.

Best regards, Dr

 

[Charlie Huang]

Can anyone here suggest a supplier for a black morning dress coat and a pair of those grey striped breeches? I'm not going to pay Brooks prices. I'm looking for the insider's deal for a suit I will 3-4 times/year at most. Thanks a lot.

P.S. When can call boots be properly worn with morning dress? Thanks again.

I can only advise on UK places: Pakeman Catto & Carter is good for the trousers. As for the coat, I would say vintage shops and eBay for better made ones that are cheaper and better cut than modern ones but if you must get new then E&R and places like that including PCC as before.

 

[Edward]

What I (and my friends) wore to Friday's street party (silk topper was stored under the table at that point in time which I later wore afterwards):

Is that Tim Brook-Taylor in the background in the ghastly novelty waistcoat? lol

When I was in Hyde Park earlier watching the big screens, there were plenty of people who wanted to take photos of me.

How did that go over.... did people 'get' what you were wearing, or did they think it was a 'fancy dress' costume? I think it's a real shame morning dress has been reduced in the minds of so many to "posh wedding clothes". It needs to be worn more often!

TBH, unless you know what you are doing, do not go down the pleated shirt route. The shirt in question is a bib front on a 'grandad style' shirt with very wide pleats of around 3" or so spacing and not the very piffy thin ones.

I was under the impression that all pleat front shirts were considered to be evening-wear items, but it sounds like yours is rather a different beast than what I have encountered until now.

Black waistcoat: I do not think that a black waistcoat isn't festive enough. Besides, I was wearing houndstooth trousers.

Indeed!

Found out that Beckham's topper was made by Philip Treacy, a milliner... No wonder it looked like fancy dress...

Ha! Quite. Did he do the usual soccer player thing and tie his four in hand with a knot bigger than his own head?