Morning dress

[Edward]

To the question of wearing it to a regular Church service, I think it would be likely to cast the wrong impression, or at least look "fancy dress". Unfortunately, for the most part full formal daywear is predominantly relegated to weddings and the races these days. A real shame, but there you have it.

I've seen plenty of pictures suggesting that a notched lapel was equally correct to a peaked lapel, even in the UK. I would personally choose a peaked lapel or a DB jacket to bump up the formality though.

I have a 30s (I think) stroller which is notch. Still looking for a peak. It does seem to me that notch was more acceptable and thus more common with this than on a dj. The only persons outside of vintage circles I can recall having seen wearing black lounge in modern times are all chauffeurs, undertakers, or freemasons (my office is just around the corner from some sort of major HQ for freemasonry). All exclusively sb, notch lapel jackets.

 

[Derek WC]

I suppose it would draw glares from an extremely informal small town. I don't think morning dress with a black lounge would though, considering I already wear a suit every day, and your average person would probably think it less formal, seeing as how the pants are not cut out of the same material it would look like a sport 'suit' to them.

Freemasons tend to dress like dandies, I've noticed - even in America.

 

[Charlie Huang]

Church: it really depends on the occasion and the crowd. If it is a wedding or a very special service and the congregation knows you well that they know you like to wear morning dress often then yes, why not. But if you're going to wear it out of the blue then no, avoid. The thing with morning dress is that you should wear it to suit the occasion and it should be natural.

Black lounge jackets: peaks or notches are equally correct. TBH, some consider it not as 'semi-formal' but 'informal' together with the lounge suit, etc.

Waistcoat: black is for business in The City, any other colour is festive.

 

[Hap Hapablap]

Freemasons tend to dress like dandies, I've noticed - even in America.[/QUOTE]

I need to transfer lodges. The Masons in MINE dress like homeless people!

 

[Derek WC]

Interesting. I've seen pictures of lodges around here and they tend to wear morning attire. Although, I'm sure that your average member will not. You wouldn't happen to know the age required to join, would you?

Yes, that's what I figured, Charlie. I suppose what I'll have to do is each visit gradually 'step up my game' so to speak, starting with a three piece suit.

 

[avedwards]

DB I would definitely disagree with. The lounge suit is single breasted. There is no such thing as a double breasted lounge suit (a reefer jacket is what we call a double breasted jacket). Black lounge implies a lounge suit, which is single breasted by definition.

Perhaps we're talking at cross purposes? As far as I'm aware lounge suits (in the modern sense of the word where the jacket and trousers match) can be single or double breasted, as can the jacket worn with a stroller. Maybe not in the 20s but certainly by the 30s.

 

[avedwards]

Black lounge jackets: peaks or notches are equally correct. TBH, some consider it not as 'semi-formal' but 'informal' together with the lounge suit, etc.

I would say if one is talking in a post-1920s context there is a strong argument for black lounge/stroller to be labeled semi-formal rather than informal. The fact is that a black lounge outfit is a step up in formality from a "business" suit. Evidence of this would be that it has a corresponding evening equivalent (black tie) unlike a suit which is informal enough to be appropriate at any time of the day.

 

[John in Covina]

What do you guys think of wearing morning dress to church?

If it is a church you attend regularly you will get a feel for the congregants and how they would receive it. I would sort of suggest that you reserve it for the High Feast Days of the Liturgical calendar that the church recognizes and participates in such as Christmas or Easter.

I wore my tux for Christmas service as a participant I held the cross for the processionals and as an usher. I might do it for Easter, maybe. But I would not wear the tux for a regular Sunday or a lesser feast day.

 

[Derek WC]

Forgive me, John, but I know almost nothing about Christianity besides what is in the Bible, as I've rarely gone to church before, and cannot say what High Feast and whatnot is. Only recently have I noticed all of these small churches around here, so I've decided to start going. I thoroughly dislike large churches as often they are playing extremely loud music with electric guitars and such.

 

[Lokar]

Perhaps we're talking at cross purposes? As far as I'm aware lounge suits (in the modern sense of the word where the jacket and trousers match) can be single or double breasted, as can the jacket worn with a stroller. Maybe not in the 20s but certainly by the 30s.

http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=762

The traditional term for the double breasted jacket is the reefer jacket or coat. This contrasts to the single breasted lounge jacket. That is to say there is strictly speaking no such a thing as a double breasted lounge jacket. Indeed, the lounge and the reefer jacket are two different garments with totally unrelated historical origins.

We do nowadays call both lounge suits, but it's technically incorrect and wasn't used at the time - so black _lounge_ would imply a lounge suit and single breasted.

Of course, on the other side, I keep mentioning that a strict dress code wasn't around then, so I'm sure people did wear double breasted coats - just that black lounge is an incorrect term for it.



(So what I'm trying to get across is all the flaws with "black lounge" - I don't like the term, nor the idea of making it a strict dress code (and I admit I was completely off base with the lapels))

 

[avedwards]

http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=762



We do nowadays call both lounge suits, but it's technically incorrect and wasn't used at the time - so black _lounge_ would imply a lounge suit and single breasted.

Of course, on the other side, I keep mentioning that a strict dress code wasn't around then, so I'm sure people did wear double breasted coats - just that black lounge is an incorrect term for it.



(So what I'm trying to get across is all the flaws with "black lounge" - I don't like the term, nor the idea of making it a strict dress code (and I admit I was completely off base with the lapels))

That article doesn't make the distinction between the DB blazer/reefer jacket and DB suit clear enough in my opinion, because the two are worlds apart. My point was simply that a black double-breasted jacket with horn buttons (opposed to the brass buttons of a reefer jacket) can be worn with morning trousers to make a stroller.

 

[Lokar]

You're quite right that it's fine to wear a DB coat with checked trousers. I worded my first reply badly and I apologise for that.
I didn't mean to imply that wearing a DB black coat with checked trousers is "wrong", just that it can't properly be used with the term "black lounge".


p.s. A reefer jacket and a blazer are not interchangeable - any double breasted suit strictly has a reefer jacket with matching trousers (in the same way you have a lounge coat with matching trousers in a single breasted suit). Reefer jackets absolutely do not require brass buttons, that's the modern American "blazer". Note this DB is described as a reefer jacket - but no metal buttons anywhere in sight!

 

[John in Covina]

Forgive me, John, but I know almost nothing about Christianity besides what is in the Bible, as I've rarely gone to church before, and cannot say what High Feast and whatnot is. Only recently have I noticed all of these small churches around here, so I've decided to start going. I thoroughly dislike large churches as often they are playing extremely loud music with electric guitars and such.

I'll send you a PM. I have some ideas as to church shopping that I can run by you that may help.

 

[dhermann1]

Re: Morning suits in church. When I was very young my family were members at the Riverside Church, in New York, a spectacular Gothic creation, built by John D. Rockefelller Jr. The ushers always wore morning suits, and they looked pretty amazing when they gathered at the back of the church after the collection, and filed down the aisle in pairs. But other than that I've never seen morning dress in church. I really would recommend against it, unless you're going to a very fancy formal day time wedding in a big church.

 

[Charlie Huang]

I've got a few morning dress events that I am possibly attending. The nearest one is the Royal Wedding where there is a public street party in Vauxhall where some of my Chappist friends will be attending and they'll be expecting that we all would be wearing it. Then, there is the Oxford punting and since I will be in morning dress in London earlier in the day for a society talk, I will go to Oxford in it afterwards, naturally. Then in June (if I'm lucky enough to secure the balloted tickets), Trooping the Colour (aka Queen's Birthday Parade) where morning dress is de rigueur as The Queen will be present.

 

[Midnight Blue]

Esquire 1930s Morning Dress Pictorials

Since I don't have a morning dress history section in The Black Tie Guide (yet), this seems like a good opportunity to share some of the vintage illustrations I've collected over the years. These are from the 1930s which was an interesting period for the morning coat as its recent elevation to defacto formal day coat meant the end of the significant variations it was allowed as pre-WWI business wear but at the same time its accessories were beginning to show the colourful flair that was also creeping in to semi-formal evening wear.

April 1934

May 1934

June 1934

November 1934

January 1935

April 1935

April 1935

 

[Midnight Blue]

more Esquire morning dress

May 1935

June 1935

April 1936

April 1936

April 1936

June 1936

 

[Midnight Blue]

more Esquire morning dress

April 1937

October 1937

April 1938

June 1938

June 1938

March 1939

April 1939

July 1939
(This one's titled "Tea Time at Lord's". Does anyone have any idea what that is referring to?)

 

[Midnight Blue]

Esquire 1940s morning dress

April 1940

April 1941

June 1941

June 1946



That's it - just in time to plan your outfit for Easter Sunday!

 

[Dr Kilroy]

What do you think about matching your waistcoat to your trousers, especially when you are wearing checked trousers? There were surely some illustrations and photos, as I recall, but at the moment I cannot find them.

Best regards, Dr