Good Wear Hercules

[Monitor]

I agree, though - I'm not a fan of GW either at all but a thread about someone's leather jacket should be only about that, notwithstanding our feelings for the maker. Showcasing cool pieces like this must only be encouraged, otherwise people are just going to avoid sharing their new purchases in the future, fearing the threads will sidetrack into something negative and TFL will become VLJ which is indeed is a very toxic and bitter place.

 

[El Marro]

Thanks for the back-up Jon. Personally, I don't mind the added chatter, thread hijacks/deviations are all a part of the forum

100% true but sometimes it can get out of hand. I can’t wait to see more photos of your jacket once you’ve had a chance to put some wear into it.

 

[red devil]

Positivity and negativity are quite often a matter of perspective. As far as I can see this is a very positive thread, and we do want to see other people in the queue getting their jackets, because that would show in action as opposed to just words that something is really being done.

So the more threads such as this one, the more positive things will become

 

[Corky Corcovado]

Dude, best Herc I've ever seen. Love it. Congratulations! I guess it does look good in larger sizes! I feel like people were questioning that in another thread? The storm collar detail is my favorite part strangely enough.

 

[dudewuttheheck]

Yeah I wouldn't say this thread has turned into anything that is really negative. The jacket looks great!

 

[jonesy86]

Yep, nice jacket.

 

[steve u]

Extremely Jealous of You G.W. jacket(civilian models that is) wearers..
steve

 

[Guppy]

^ Same with the LW hype. You know something if off when a $100 Natal is a heavier jacket than a $1500 LW.

If I may...

I own one LW, a Buco Rider, and wouldn't mind owning more 1 or 2 other LW designs if I could afford them.

I've owned maybe a half dozen Natel/Natal jackets. One cross-zip perfecto-style jacket, and maybe 5 cafe racer types.

I love both makers, and I see them very differently.

LW specializes in reproductions of old styles from roughly the 1930s-1950s. They go all out with materials and craftsmanship, and make something that is deliberately overbuilt, and are very proud of it.

Natal/Natel, we know really very little about. All the research I've done into them suggests that they were a small New England outfit. As far as I can tell, they made biker jackets, period. They used a pattern also used by Walter Dyer, an apparently larger and more successful business, but in my opinion Natal did it just a hair better, with thicker, tougher leather. They were built to be functional and durable, and they are all that, but I wouldn't say that they were obsessive about craft. They used standard, affordable materials for linings and hardware, and went above and beyond with leather.

You can often find a Natal jacket for sale on eBay for under $300, and often around $100. For what they are, I feel that they are massively undervalued. Built today, a Natal jacket would easily be a $500+ item, and probably more like $800. I have no idea what they cost when new, or really when they were in business, but I could guess that if they were mostly made in the 80's and 90's, which is only a guess, but I think it's a reasonably accurate one, then they probably sold new for around $200-250.

We know that LW sell for $1200-2000+ new. And if you're looking for a style that LW offers, nothing else will do. If you're looking for a leather jacket that's tough and heavy, a Natal will do very well, at about 1/10th the price.

From a cost to value standpoint, I think Natal enjoys a better ratio, new or used, for sure. But if you want specifically what LW offers in terms of style and spare-no-expense quality, they're in another league than Natal, and not really competing with each other (if we imagine Natal as a still-in-business business for sake of argument). LW isn't 10x the jacket for 10x the price, but they're several times what Natal is in certain aspects that Natal wasn't even trying for, so you kindof have to compare the two with that kind of understanding. If you mainly or only care about the aspects that Natal was after, then they're clearly a better value, even if inferior to LW with regard to certain details like stitching, lining materials, and hardware.

 

[ton312]

Like everything else, the relative importance of quality, and its affect on desirability, is entirely subjective.

For me, personally, quality is a critically important and essential component of desirability. There are many good fitting, functional jackets that I will not purchase because the workmanship and details do not meet my personal, subjective preferences.

How do you reconcile the (original) Buco j-100? It does not exist in the same quality sphere as your other jackets, if measured by your criteria. But I think you still like it. As you should!

 

[Seb Lucas]

Hey ton - surely it's a great thing that some people fetishize quality and chase after whatever notions of perfection they believe exists. Let them. It means all those second rate jackets that aren't authentic and artisan crafted and lack mystique remain easily procurable.

 

[ton312]

Hey ton - surely it's a great thing that some people fetishize quality and chase after whatever notions of perfection they believe exists. Let them. It means all those second rate jackets that aren't authentic and artisan crafted and lack mystique remain easily procurable.

But Buco is the antithesis of the quality/artisan jacket!! Literally! Made in a shit hole factory in Detroit on a production line. Yet. Here we are.
I know you understand Seb and it’s taken me more than a few dollars to figure it out. It’s not the leather, the liner, the zippers or stitch count. At least not for me and I suspect not for anyone. Once you put it on...that’s the truth serum. Doesn’t mean it can’t be all the aforementioned...but doesn’t mean it has to be either. But if it does. How do you reconcile it? I’m a vagabond so I traverse between camps without much regard either way. I don’t have a strict standard. I’m sure one could argue it shows.

 

[Superfluous]

How do you reconcile the (original) Buco j-100? It does not exist in the same quality sphere as your other jackets, if measured by your criteria. But I think you still like it. As you should!

Historical influence.

 

[Superfluous]

some people fetishize quality

Could you be any more passive aggressive? Why would you disparage the pursuit of quality and suggest that an emphasis on quality is akin to a "festish"? When and why did the pursuit of quality become shameful and loathsome, so as to warrant underhanded ridicule? You are better than that Seb . . . at least I thought you were . . . perhaps I was mistaken.

 

[Seb Lucas]

Could you be any more passive aggressive? Why would you disparage the pursuit of quality and suggest that an emphasis on quality is akin to a "festish"? When and why did the pursuit of quality become shameful and loathsome, so as to warrant underhanded ridicule? You are better than that Seb . . . at least I thought you were . . . perhaps I was mistaken.

Well yes, I could be a hell of a lot more passive aggressive, Super, but this is not my intent as you would probably see if you actually read my comments without casting yourself as victim of harsh judgement. But just to give you the benefit of the doubt, I will try this again so you don't feel personally slighted. And please spare me the I am "better than that" guff as that's real passive aggressive stuff right there.

This is a site that fetishises across styles of golden era gear. We are frequently obsessive and crazy. There are various schools of thought. Some people are obsessed with fit. Others with hide. Others go for stitching (and you're not the only one Super who belabours this point, as you know and not just on this site and in this hobby). All of us chasing our ideas of perfection and sometimes to no great purpose. Ton has probably made the most progress here and describes the futility of this crazy hobby the best. Yes, it is a fetish. No one is being insulted.

 

[Will Zach]

...and to add to Seb's points, this is a site where men take pictures of themselves (often in bathrooms, in secret, afraid of being walked in on), and post them on the internet. .

Think about that for a sec and then take umbrage of whether we are dealing with fetishes here. LOL.

 

[Carlos840]

Fetish: a form of sexual desire in which gratification is linked to an abnormal degree to a particular object, item of clothing, part of the body...

I don't think many of us have the sexual desire thing going on, but i am pretty sure we could be qualified as getting "abnormal" gratification from jacket/stitching/hide choice by many mental health professionals!

I also don't think that a fetish necesserally has to be "shameful and loathsome", that would be no fun at all...

Edit: My GF is a shrink, she was reading over my shoulder and instantly said "what you guys do has all the hallmarks of a good old behavioural addiction, not a fetish, a fetish is usually sexual."
She then proceded to read me this diagnostic criteria but replaced "gambling" with "buying leather jackets":

https://www.ncpgambling.org/wp-cont...M-5-Diagnostic-Criteria-Gambling-Disorder.pdf

It was a scary moment...
But hey, im an addict, not a fetishist!

 

[ton312]

I think use of the term fetish (in this sense) relates the obsession over something. Like, I have a snap on fur collar fetish. LOL. I do though.
Point I was trying to make to super was that he very much likes his Buco and forgives it for not being in the same quality sphere as say his Himel or GW...what have you. And because of this he might actually find similar joy in other jackets that are also outside that sphere. For me, that’s what’s makes the hobby more interesting, diverse and fun. Of course that doesn’t apply to everyone. I fully admit I’m not a collector of things, I’m an explorer, just passing through. I have never met a jacket I won’t sell/replace and I highly doubt I ever will.

 

[jacketjunkie]

Fetish: a form of sexual desire in which gratification is linked to an abnormal degree to a particular object, item of clothing, part of the body...

I don't think many of us have the sexual desire thing going on, but i am pretty sure we could be qualified as getting "abnormal" gratification from jacket/stitching/hide choice by many mental health professionals!

I also don't think that a fetish necesserally has to be "shameful and loathsome", that would be no fun at all...

Edit: My GF is a shrink, she was reading over my shoulder and instantly said "what you guys do has all the hallmarks of a good old behavioural addiction, not a fetish, a fetish is usually sexual."
She then proceded to read me this diagnostic criteria but replaced "gambling" with "buying leather jackets":

https://www.ncpgambling.org/wp-cont...M-5-Diagnostic-Criteria-Gambling-Disorder.pdf

It was a scary moment...
But hey, im an addict, not a fetishist!

I have thought so for a while already... caught myself too often thinking "what leather jacket should I buy now" while being fully aware of not needing another one. And then there's me obsessively looking through ebay for hours, frantically looking for a new object of desire. Also the buying when depressed thing hits close to home.. I bought most of ly jackets when I was unhappy and I recall @Superfluous reporting on a similar issue in his past.

Good to have a shrink confirm it. Your gf should sign up already, she owns a LL and is therefore qualified and as proven here she has good content and knowledge to contribute.

 

[Carlos840]

I think use of the term fetish (in this sense) relates the obsession over something. Like, I have a snap on fur collar fetish. LOL. I do though.
Point I was trying to make to super was that he very much likes his Buco and forgives it for not being in the same quality sphere as say his Himel or GW...what have you. And because of this he might actually find similar joy in other jackets that are also outside that sphere. For me, that’s what’s makes the hobby more interesting, diverse and fun. Of course that doesn’t apply to everyone. I fully admit I’m not a collector of things, I’m an explorer, just passing through. I have never met a jacket I won’t sell/replace and I highly doubt I ever will.

From a medical standpoint, it appears the term "fetish" should be used when linked to sexual gratification, which i hope is not something linked to collars in your case! ( I don't even want to know!)

"According to the DSM-5, fetishistic disorder is characterized as a condition in which there is a persistent and repetitive use of or dependence on nonliving objects (such as undergarments or high-heeled shoes) or a highly specific focus on a body part (most often nongenital, such as feet) to reach sexual arousal"

So you are probably best described as having a "fur collar addiction/thing"
(GF says Fetish is usually coloquially used just because it is a "sexy word " and people misunderstand what addiction is. Although she is convinced that at least some of us on here have a "real" fetish about leather... But you don't want to hear her descriptions!)

If you want a leather help consultation it can be done via skype?!

 

[ton312]

From a medical standpoint, it appears the term "fetish" should be used when linked to sexual gratification, which i hope is not something linked to collars in your case! ( I don't even want to know!)

"According to the DSM-5, fetishistic disorder is characterized as a condition in which there is a persistent and repetitive use of or dependence on nonliving objects (such as undergarments or high-heeled shoes) or a highly specific focus on a body part (most often nongenital, such as feet) to reach sexual arousal"

So you are probably best described as having a "fur collar addiction/thing"
(GF says Fetish is usually coloquially used just because it is a "sexy word " and people misunderstand what addiction is. Although she is convinced that at least some of us on here have a "real" fetish about leather... But you don't want to hear her descriptions!)

If you want a leather help consultation it can be done via skype?!

LOOL!! Well I’m pretty sure at least one of the collars.....




is....





beaver mouton.