Formal Wear Primer

[Richard Warren]

White tie notch lapel?

http://www.antiquemapsandprints.com/p-10035.jpg

 

[Marc Chevalier]

White tie notch lapel?

http://www.antiquemapsandprints.com/p-10035.jpg

It's somewhere between a PL and an NL. Looks a bit like a "fish mouth".

.

 

[Richard Warren]

apologia for the notch lapel dinner jacket

When I was a younger man, the only real option was the shawl collar. The peak was old fashioned, and the notch non-existent. When my daughter came of such an age as it was once more incumbent on me to wear a presentable black tie, middle age had taken its toll, and the shawl had to be replaced.

I was surprised and not pleased to find that nothing but notch lapel dinner jackets could be found, and further they all had flap pockets and for some reason bands of satin around the waist. Most had far too many buttons.

Which is to say that for some time I held the notch lapel dinner jacket to be an abomination.

A notch lapel, however, is just more flattering for many. There is a conventional wisdom that the notch makes one look both taller and thinner. There is certainly room for one (or his tailor) to conclude simply that a notch is a better look.

The real argument in favor of the notch is that on a contemporary person, it simply looks more natural. That is to say, the contemporary notch wearer looks exactly like what he is: someone who is obliged to wear clothing distinct from his normal attire, but has no desire to wear anything that could be considered a costume.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

The real argument in favor of the notch is that on a contemporary person, it simply looks more natural. That is to say, the contemporary notch wearer looks exactly like what he is: someone who is obliged to wear clothing distinct from his normal attire, but has no desire to wear anything that could be considered a costume.

Absolutely right. I remember those no-nonsense, conservatively-dressed, downtown Los Angeles businessmen from the 1980s: their 'uniform' was the single-breasted, 2-button, notch lapel suit. (No double-breasteds! No pleats!) These fellows would have felt uncomfortable wearing peak lapels. They didn't particularly like wearing tuxedos, period.


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[Brummagem Joe]

Absolutely right. I remember those no-nonsense, conservatively-dressed, downtown Los Angeles businessmen from the 1980s: their 'uniform' was the single-breasted, 2-button, notch lapel suit. (No double-breasteds! No pleats!) These fellows would have felt uncomfortable wearing peak lapels. They didn't particularly like wearing tuxedos, period.


.

........There is an element of when in Rome as you say......the peaked lapel SB is going to look "different" in Grand Rapids but not really in NYC.......having eaten a fair number of rubber chickens in my time the NL SB is well nigh ubiquitous in the business community.......I solved the problem by wearing DB DJ which attracted no attention but looked stylish.......I actually think the problem is, as another poster mentioned, that in much of the country peaked lapel SB is not available in stores.....how else to explain the fact that people wear bizarre colored bow ties or four in hands and cummerbunds and it passes without notice so you'd wonder why would anyone be surprised by a peaked lapel..........That said I have a few peaked lapel lounge suits but I wouldn't wear them in the midwest outside of Chicago.

 

[Richard Warren]

At the risk of engaging in rhetoric as defined by Mr. Everhart, it seems we are discussing an apparent conflict between what is "proper" (to eschew the notch lapel) and what is ubiquitous (to wear the notch lapel). In such a conflict, the "proper" must logically give way. The authority on which propriety (as opposed to morals) rests is convention. Convention in turn rests on usage. An erstwhile convention which no longer has usage to back it up is is merely a tradition, a taste, a quirk, or perhaps even an eccentricity.

 

[avedwards]

Reading the above posts I think that a notched lapel DJ definitely has some place. In the business world I think it is very appropriate for black tie events. When attending black tie optional events I can see it working nicely too. Casinos are another place I would wear one, as it looks smart but won't make other people feel as underdressed as a peaked lapel DJ might (see Daniel Craig in Casino Royale, where I realise that he makes the mistake of wearing no waist covering but never unbuttons his jacket either).

However, I agree that a notched lape DJ could be out of place at the opera (traditionally) where white tie or at least a peaked lapel DJ would be better.

The solution of course is a shawl lapel DJ which can be worn with a cummerbund to look less formal, or a waistcoat and wing collar to look more formal. My point is that a NLDJ is in certain settings more appropriate than the more formal PLDJ. I'd say that if not in the past, today it equates to the DB or white DJ in formality.

 

[Orgetorix]

One more thing to say in this regard: As Richard Warren has already noted, propriety is in some sense in the eye of the beholder. And 99.9% of the beholders in the modern world aren't going to notice the difference between a peak, notch, or shawl lapel. All they're going to see is that you're wearing a tux. And if a few observant ones do notice a difference between various lapel styles, it sure won't occur to them that there could be various levels of formality associated with them.

 

[Richard Warren]

Lapel hierarchy

One might look at it this way:

1. Peak Lapel-David Niven
2. Shawl-Sean Connery
3. Notch-Jackie Chan

 

[dhermann1]

Topper vs homburg

OK, here's a question: Can a homburg be worn with white tie and tails?
I've seen several old films on TCM lately where a guy goes out in a formal get up, but wears his regular overcoat or trenchcoat and fedora. One example was a Bette Davis flick (Deception, 1946) where her husband is a musician going to Carnegie Hall for a concert. But I think it was meant to show that he was dressed in white tie for the concert, but was still poor enough not to have a fancy coat or hat.
I ask because I want to wear white tie this weekend, but the elegant antique topper I recently acquired from a fellow Lounger is in delicate condition and wearing it might damage it badly. But I have a great black homburg, plus a nice black Inverness cape that would also look nice with the white tie outfit.

 

[Tomasso]

White Tie + homburg? shakeshead

 

[avedwards]

OK, here's a question: Can a homburg be worn with white tie and tails?
I've seen several old films on TCM lately where a guy goes out in a formal get up, but wears his regular overcoat or trenchcoat and fedora. One example was a Bette Davis flick (Deception, 1946) where her husband is a musician going to Carnegie Hall for a concert. But I think it was meant to show that he was dressed in white tie for the concert, but was still poor enough not to have a fancy coat or hat.
I ask because I want to wear white tie this weekend, but the elegant antique topper I recently acquired from a fellow Lounger is in delicate condition and wearing it might damage it badly. But I have a great black homburg, plus a nice black Inverness cape that would also look nice with the white tie outfit.

I believe that in Victorian times it was done. If you watch the 1939 version of The Hound of the Baskervilles, Sir Henry goes out putting a regular chequed wool overcoat on with a homburg which isn't even black. I realise this is a film but in the Strand magazine there are plenty of illustrations of this being done. It's like wearing black tie with a fedora. If the hat is just worn as outerwear (take it off inside) I think it would be acceptable, if not satorially correct. However I would say wear a scarf or something to cover your bowtie when wearing your overcoat to make it less obvious that you're in white tie with an incorrect hat.

However, remember two things. Victorian etiquette is different from modern etiquette as one would now no longer dream of wearing a black bowtie with a tailcoat which was common enough in the 1800s. Secondly, my advice may well be wrong as I was the person to spark off a four page debate about the acceptability of a notched lapel DJ.

 

[dnjan]

Bow Tie width

Most of the bow ties I have seen for sale lately are 2-1/2" wide, with a few at 2-1/4". This seems a bit wide to me.

Does anyone have information on the historical evolution of black bow tie widths?

Thanks!

 

[Richard Warren]

I'll go for variations in black tie (it is after all informal), and if you really need a hat to keep your head warm, maybe you should wear it, but otherwise would avoid homburg with tails. Actually, unless you are in a milieu in which formal evening war with a top hat is habitually worn, I would avoid one of those also, since it may well look like you are dressed in a costume rather than suit of clothes.

 

[Evan Everhart]

OK, here's a question: Can a homburg be worn with white tie and tails?
I've seen several old films on TCM lately where a guy goes out in a formal get up, but wears his regular overcoat or trenchcoat and fedora. One example was a Bette Davis flick (Deception, 1946) where her husband is a musician going to Carnegie Hall for a concert. But I think it was meant to show that he was dressed in white tie for the concert, but was still poor enough not to have a fancy coat or hat.
I ask because I want to wear white tie this weekend, but the elegant antique topper I recently acquired from a fellow Lounger is in delicate condition and wearing it might damage it badly. But I have a great black homburg, plus a nice black Inverness cape that would also look nice with the white tie outfit.

The musician who wore a homburg with full dress evening wear (white tie) was showing his lack of cultivation a subtle cue to people of the time who would have understood that a person of upper society would not have done such a thing. In Hound of the Baskervilles, the man who wore the tweed over-coat and homburg with his white tie ensemble was an American. Americans are always portrayed as rather socially indelicate and uneducated regarding the finer points of style, elegance, and propriety in British cinema and literature. Americans are considered rather to be unrefined or "countrified" younger cousins by the British so it is unsurprising that an American upstart who has just been raised to a lordship would be shown doing something which would in proper British society have been considered so gauche.

The homburg hat was a country hat which was endorsed by Prince Albert after his visit to the spa town of Bad Homburg. The Prince wore his homburg most frequently with sporting clothes (tweeds and lounge suits) and it only later became acceptable wear with more informal single breasted full-skirted frock coats, cut-away frock coats, evening half dress (black tie) in short, with what today amounts to a blazer or sports coat and trousers (half dress or undress).

I would recommend that you find yourself another topper which you feel confidant in wearing. What after all is the point of owning a top hat which you either cannot or will not wear due to its flagging wear-ability or your own dependence upon it to not in some way fall apart or get ruined.

If you go to http://horsecountrylife.com/catalog/cover.html they have a relatively reasonable silk topper for around five or six hundred I believe. It has a six and a half inch crown and semi-rolled brim to boot. It is really not bad. There is also that other site, the European one which has top hats for around the same and with more variety of styles and sizes. Check on the head-wear threads.

 

[avedwards]

I'm guessing that Mr dhermann1's top hat is in need of repair, and therefore not usable yet but will be at some point. Therefore buying a new one would be uneconomic and he's wondering if the homburg can be used just this once as a substitute for a top hat.

 

[dhermann1]

Egg-zackly. The places in England that do this sort of work charge as much as $350, so I'm just sitting on it for the moment. It's a very tall old fashioned looking topper, but the the edge of the crown is worn down, the binding on the brim has frayed completely apart, and the sweat band is shot. Just handling it is making it worse. So it's a project. But I have all the rest of the get up, and I'm planning on going to Club Wits DEnd's party this Saturday. So I'm betwixt and between wearing the white tie, or falling back on my more than serviceable vintage dinner suit.

 

[dnjan]

...a nice black Inverness cape that would also look nice with the white tie outfit.

I think it is the cape that really makes the homburg less than desirable. As has already been suggested, an overcoat with a scarf that hides the white tie could be easily worn with the homburg. And the few seconds in which the white tie and homburg are both visible could probably go un-noticed. But the homburg and cape would be visible together for a long time and by (presumably) a number of people.

 

[Richard Warren]

If you have it in you to wear a cape, I guess you can pretty much do want. Have fun.

 

[avedwards]

Egg-zackly. The places in England that do this sort of work charge as much as $350, so I'm just sitting on it for the moment. It's a very tall old fashioned looking topper, but the the edge of the crown is worn down, the binding on the brim has frayed completely apart, and the sweat band is shot. Just handling it is making it worse. So it's a project. But I have all the rest of the get up, and I'm planning on going to Club Wits DEnd's party this Saturday. So I'm betwixt and between wearing the white tie, or falling back on my more than serviceable vintage dinner suit.

Unless it's a white tie event, I'd say go for black tie as that can be worn with an Inverness and homburg without a problem. Save the white tie for when your topper is servicable, unless you are very keen on wearing the white tie at all costs, in which case my vote goes for making an exception and wearing the homburg with a scarf as I suggested earlier.