Formal Wear Primer

[avedwards]

I think it is the cape that really makes the homburg less than desirable. As has already been suggested, an overcoat with a scarf that hides the white tie could be easily worn with the homburg. And the few seconds in which the white tie and homburg are both visible could probably go un-noticed. But the homburg and cape would be visible together for a long time and by (presumably) a number of people.

Remember that this is an Inverness cape. It's an overcoat more than a cape (the cape is only part of it and only goes down to the waist). I think an Inverness and homburg are acceptable together for black tie, so if a scarf is worn it should work.

 

[Feraud]

I ask because I want to wear white tie this weekend,

Do you have any pics of the outfit? I would like to see it.
Thanks.

 

[Cobden]

A loan disagreement about the Homburg, but one of the sort of style manual things I have (I'm not sure which one) mentions that a Homburg is appropriate for white tie if a top hat is impractical, such as when travelling by tube or in a low ceilinged car

 

[Midnight Blue]

Evan and Midnight: Would either of you care to quote the period sources you cite in reference to the inappropriateness of the notch lapel? I'm particularly interested in pre-WWII sources, as most of us here recognize this period as setting the standards of good taste.

Oh, and please make sure, if possible, that they're American sources. Thanks.

I just noticed your request and would be happy to oblige. My 1920s and 1930s sources are as follows:

Men’s Wear magazine has many ads for notched lapels, but the dress charts in the issues I have researched only mention peak lapel or shawl collar:

• Mar 11, 1925
• Mar 24, 1926
• Apr 7, 1926
• Aug 22, 1928
• Aug 20, 1930
• May 20, 1931
• the exception to the rule is the Sep 9, 1931 dress chart which actually does allow for notch lapels

In addition, the notch lapel doesn't seem to have been favoured by the better dressed men of the period according to the magazine's best-dressed surveys:

• Palm Beach survey in Apr 9, 1924 shows 9% of dinner jackets had notched lapels
• Palm Beach survey in Mar 10, 1926 shows only 6% had notch lapel
• New York survey in Aug 22, 1928 shows only 4% with NL

The Apparel Arts dress charts I have also specify peak lapel or shawl collar with no mention of notch lapel

• fall 1932
• winter 1932
• spring 1933
• fall 1933

Not a single issue of Esquire in the 1930s has an ad or a pictorial of a notch lapel dinner jacket

Finally, the Emily Post books I have from this era allow only for peak lapel or shawl collar. These consist of the 1st edition in 1922 and 5th edition in 1937.

This is what leads me to conclude that while notch lapel DJs were very much available in the 20s and 30s they were not considered correct by the leading authorities in menswear and etiquette of the time (or of the '40s and '50s, for that matter).

 

[dhermann1]

Do you have any pics of the outfit? I would like to see it.
Thanks.

A little self critique:
I found a bowtie on Ebay that I wore. It seems to be silk, slightly off white, with a bow shape at one end and the other end just stays narrow. It made a neat but very small bow. I have ordered a proper marcella bow tie to go with the marcella shirt I wore.
The hat is a gorgeous tall topper I got from a fellow Lounger. It really needs a total refurb. The sweatband is totally shot, and the silk around the top of the crown is pretty thread bare. I tried to give it a brush, if not a full shine. Anyway, it looked pretty cool in the dim lighting.
The jacket is a former rental , also from the Bay, and it fit me to a T. And only like $30 or $40,as I recall. I wore my single wide strip trousers. Some day . . . I'll find a pair of double stripes. I'm not losing any sleep over that one, tho.
I wore my black Inverness cape with it, and as I walked the streets of midtown Manhattan,I definitely got looks, mostly admiring. One girl (in a cute sailor suit, it was Halloween, after all) said my look was fabulous.
So I had a LOT of fun. Especially riding the subway down from the Bronx and back up. The Bronx folks were among the most appreciative. This great picture courtesy of Don Spiro.

BTW, while watching one of the Fred and Ginger flicks on Thanksgiving, I noticed a tail coat with a shawl collar. White tie and tails, with a shawl collar. I usually, now, note the variations in the white tie outfits. Mostly it has to do with a straight or v shaped vest bottom, not much else. I thought the shawl collar was pretty cool.

 

[Chasseur]

Looking good there! Nothing beats a tophat, white tie and tails! Now I need my topper reshaped to fit my oval head...

 

[Evan Everhart]

A little self critique:
I found a bowtie on Ebay that I wore. It seems to be silk, slightly off white, with a bow shape at one end and the other end just stays narrow. It made a neat but very small bow.

That is a rather rare type of bow-tie sir! Early on, white silk bow-tie ties were worn for preference before the predominance of the marcela or pique bow-tie and shirt front! That is a particularly nice example as it allows you to make a certain type of bow-tie knot which most people today do not know how to knot (if you will excuse my punning around). instead of having to tuck the other end of one's bow-tie all the way through the back, one can easily simply tuck the narrow end into the hollow of it's front opposite for a cleaner looking knot. They were very popular for a while there. If you don't want to keep the thing, let me know, I would be more than glad to take it off of your hands. Take care sir and Wonderful look! Oh, one more thing, according to Emily Post, 1922, if memory serves me correctly, evening trousers for full formal should simply have wide braid, not a double braid. That said, one may infer that your trousers were indeed correct sir and regardless, you look Wonderful in that photo! Great looking outfit and topper and bow there sir! Have you considered a boiled front shirt or a detachable shirt front?

 

[Evan Everhart]

I just noticed your request and would be happy to oblige. My 1920s and 1930s sources are as follows:

Not a single issue of Esquire in the 1930s has an ad or a pictorial of a notch lapel dinner jacket

Finally, the Emily Post books I have from this era allow only for peak lapel or shawl collar. These consist of the 1st edition in 1922 and 5th edition in 1937.

This is what leads me to conclude that while notch lapel DJs were very much available in the 20s and 30s they were not considered correct by the leading authorities in menswear and etiquette of the time (or of the '40s and '50s, for that matter).

Thank you SO SO Much Midnight Blue for finally settling this thing up! The "lapel wars" were beyond incomprehensible to me! Good show Sir! Wonderful references there and just wonderful over-all what with the research involved and everything else! Bravo!

 

[dhermann1]

EE: My shirt was a relatively inexpensive attached collar shirt from T L Lewin, maybe $60, on sale. The boiled shirt looks great, and the detachable collar sounds like the way to go. But all things in due time. I got that bow tie at a vintage clothing store in the Village, if memory serves. I knew it was just something to grab when I saw it. I really like it, but I think I still might like the marcella look better. Anyhow, thanks for the compliment. One thing I didn't mention was that my best braces are black silk. Don't have white ones. That's also on the eventually but no rush list. I'd also like a nicer waistcoat. I keep seeing those elegant brocade jobs in the movies. Some day . . .
I'll mention it again. When you're wearing white tie and tails, you feel like a million dollars. Wait, in this inflated economy, you feel like a billion diollars! And people give you such a look of abject admiration.

 

[Tomasso]

This is what leads me to conclude that while notch lapel DJs were very much available in the 20s and 30s they were not considered correct by the leading authorities in menswear and etiquette of the time (or of the '40s and '50s, for that matter).

You're making a leap. Have you found anything declaring the notch lapel DJ incorrect?

 

[dnjan]

You're making a leap. Have you found anything declaring the notch lapel DJ incorrect?

But popularity means correctness to the masses!

 

[Marc Chevalier]

.



The last two posts make very good points ... but, IMO, Midnight Blue has convincingly answered them in advance:

Men’s Wear magazine has many ads for notched lapels, but the dress charts in the issues I have researched only mention peak lapel or shawl collar:

• Mar 11, 1925
• Mar 24, 1926
• Apr 7, 1926
• Aug 22, 1928
• Aug 20, 1930
• May 20, 1931
• the exception to the rule is the Sep 9, 1931 dress chart which actually does allow for notch lapels

In addition, the notch lapel doesn't seem to have been favoured by the better dressed men of the period according to the magazine's best-dressed surveys:

• Palm Beach survey in Apr 9, 1924 shows 9% of dinner jackets had notched lapels
• Palm Beach survey in Mar 10, 1926 shows only 6% had notch lapel
• New York survey in Aug 22, 1928 shows only 4% with NL

The Apparel Arts dress charts I have also specify peak lapel or shawl collar with no mention of notch lapel.

• fall 1932
• winter 1932
• spring 1933
• fall 1933

.

 

[Feraud]

But popularity means correctness to the masses!

An interesting observation considering those who frequent this forum.

 

[Tomasso]

the notch lapel doesn't seem to have been favoured by the better dressed men of the period according to the magazine's best-dressed surveys:

• Palm Beach survey in Apr 9, 1924 shows 9% of dinner jackets had notched lapels
• Palm Beach survey in Mar 10, 1926 shows only 6% had notch lapel
• New York survey in Aug 22, 1928 shows only 4% with NL

Why do you assume here that those in the minority are not the better dressed?

And simply being omitted from a couple sources does not prove it incorrect.

 

[Geesie]

So, what percentage of today's suits have a waistcoat?

 

[dhermann1]

OK, guys. Let's get civilized about this. If you throw a party, and the invitations says "Black Tie", and somebody shows up in a notched lapel jacket, with everything else perfect, are you gonna throw him out? Beat him up? Hate him? I hope not. Go ahead and make snide remarks about him behind his back.
I think that the more you get exposed to the classic use of these outfits, the more you'll like the peak or shawl collars. But it's still just a matter of taste!
I'm getting a little weary of the excess passion being thrown into this discussion. Please, people, let it go, already!

 

[Marc Chevalier]

Why do you assume here that those in the minority are not the better dressed?

And simply being omitted from a couple sources does not prove it incorrect.

Midnight Blue's survey statistics were very important in their time. In 1920s and '30s America, fashion trends in menswear were inspired (and given the aura of validity and 'correctness') by wealthy, socially-connected individuals and groups who made specific changes to their wardrobes each season. These individuals and groups would be observed (or "surveyed") and studied in their 'watering holes' -- the Ivy League universities, the race track, the opera, the beachside resorts, etc.-- by fashion journalists, who would write down and sketch each new fashion quirk.


If a lot of influential rich men were seen wearing the same 'quirk', it meant that a trend was being born. The news would be published in menswear trade journals, daily newspapers, and magazines. Then, menswear manufacturers would mass produce some of these 'quirks', hoping that they'd catch on with the public.


The lack of notch lapel tuxedos at the watering holes of the rich was an indicator of that detail's lack of 'correctness' (since 'correctness', in America, was greatly determined by the rich themselves -- or at least some of them.)



.

 

[Richard Warren]

Who can say that the minority in the past wearing notched lapels were not in fact the elite, the cognoscenti? Were the minority wearing, say, matte calfskin pumps rather than patent leather cap toes rubes or swells? Who knows?

 

[dhermann1]

Nah, they were with the band.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

Who can say that the minority in the past wearing notched lapels were not in fact the elite, the cognoscenti?

It all depended on who was in that minority. Still, even among the 'mainline' rich, there were very few individuals who alone could bestow 'correctness' to a fashion quirk, regardless of whether other rich men were adopting it too.


In almost every case, the key was have a notable number of wealthy mainliners all adopt the quirk at the same time and place. If "the elite, the cognoscenti" were unable to inspire a chunk of their social equals to copy their particular style --be it notch lapels or green carnations-- then the style itself would not be deemed 'correct'.


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