Formal Wear Primer

[Feraud]

I am sure that the individuals who have chosen to wear those abominable notched lapel dinner jackets have done so because they either "feel" that it looks good, or because they were negligently informed that it was either "fashionable", or "stylish", or "correct". Any such assertion is of course incorrect. There are rules sir, and there is taste. The notched lapel dinner jacket is not approved of by the one nor is it an expression of the other.

Because you have completely ignored Orgetorix's post I will quote it below.
Please read it and feel free to debate how "wrong" a notch lapel is in terms of rules without the verbose rhetoric. Taste is subjective and therefore irrelevant in this particular discussion of the period correctness (excluding the aesthetic) of wearing a notch lapel.

Please provide some historical background as others have done to back up their case.

Once again for your reading pleasure-

There is absolutely, positively no possible way that anyone can legitimately argue that notch lapels are historically "incorrect." Not as far as United States sartorial history is concerned. They have, quite simply, been around as long as Americans have been wearing dinner jackets. Period photos, catalogs, and advertisements bear this out, as they show them as early as the first decade of the 20th century. Maybe earlier. Here's a 1927 catalog page, just for example:

Argue, if you like, that they weren't as common as peaks or shawls in the prewar era. I admit it. I have a 1902 photo where the notch lapel wearer is outnumbered 15 to 1 by peaks and shawls. But there is one there, and he's no less appropriately dressed than the others.

Argue, if you like, that they aren't as elegant as a peak or shawl lapel. I agree with you. Notch lapels sometimes seem a bit too much like a business suit. I think there's nothing as elegant as a well-cut peak-lapel dinner jacket ensemble.

Argue, if you like, that notch-lapel dinner jackets are an unfortunate Americanization, a sartorial maladaptation of something the British have always done better. Ok, maybe. I'm a bit of an Anglophile myself. But the fact that I like my suits with double vents doesn't mean I won't wear one with a single vent, or that I'll tell people they're incorrect if they do.

Just don't try to argue that a notch-lapel jacket is somehow "incorrect" or inappropriate. It's a perfectly acceptable option with over a hundred years of precedent. It may be the red-headed stepchild of the evening formalwear clan, but it's certainly a legitimate member of the family.


Not sorry for the rant.

 

[Cobden]

I think, oddly enough, both sides are correct in this debate over the notched lapel, in that it is both correct and incorrect according to, shall we say, rules on these things as "codified" (for want of a better term) during the golden era of the 20's and 30's. And I think this was due to a shift in perception with regards to black tie: from informal (evening equivalent of a business suit) to semi-formal - semi formal by and large being an apparrel appellation introduced during the interbellum.

To whit, in the early part of the golden era, black tie was informal. It was the equivalent to the business suit for the evening, there being no such thing as semi-formal. As such, as notch lapels and peaked lapels were appropriate for the business suit, they were both appropriate for dinner dress. Then, as the custom for dressing for informal dinners abated for largely practical purposes, the dinner jacket got kicked up a notch (no pun intended) to the league of semi-formality, the evening counterpart to the reletively recent invention of the black lounge suit (I believe called a stroller suit by our cousins?). After this point, the notch lapel becomes incorrect, as only the peaked lapel is appropriate for semi formal, with both dinner jackets (which are also permitted to rolled lapel) and black lounge suits having this style of lapel.

Basically, it boils down to one question: is a dinner suit informal or semi-formal? If the former, notch is fine, the latter, it's a no no.

 

[Brummagem Joe]

I think, oddly enough, both sides are correct in this debate over the notched lapel, in that it is both correct and incorrect according to, shall we say, rules on these things as "codified" (for want of a better term) during the golden era of the 20's and 30's. And I think this was due to a shift in perception with regards to black tie: from informal (evening equivalent of a business suit) to semi-formal - semi formal by and large being an apparrel appellation introduced during the interbellum.

To whit, in the early part of the golden era, black tie was informal. It was the equivalent to the business suit for the evening, there being no such thing as semi-formal. As such, as notch lapels and peaked lapels were appropriate for the business suit, they were both appropriate for dinner dress. Then, as the custom for dressing for informal dinners abated for largely practical purposes, the dinner jacket got kicked up a notch (no pun intended) to the league of semi-formality, the evening counterpart to the reletively recent invention of the black lounge suit (I believe called a stroller suit by our cousins?). After this point, the notch lapel becomes incorrect, as only the peaked lapel is appropriate for semi formal, with both dinner jackets (which are also permitted to rolled lapel) and black lounge suits having this style of lapel.

Basically, it boils down to one question: is a dinner suit informal or semi-formal? If the former, notch is fine, the latter, it's a no no.

.......I think you answered your own question......a dinner suit is by definition at the very least semi formal.....in fact outside of opera balls in Vienna, state dinners at Buckingham Palace, or similar, it's actually very formal surely.

 

[Cobden]

Yes, but I still think it boils down to ones perception as to whether it is semi-formal or informal. And that boils down to what "set", or periods, rules you use. Rules in the 20's, 30's, 50's etc. vary somewhat with regard to the DJ. 20's the DJ is informal, 30's semi formal, 50's the soft collar was considered a-ok, and the 70's...well, best not go there.

Though one could argue that nowadays the DJ is formal, and tails uber formal, and stupid DJ's worn by celebrities at the oscars are semi formal. Personally, I think the rule of white tie being formal, black tie being informal, and those stupid things celebrities wear at the oscars are stupid

 

[Evan Everhart]

Because you have completely ignored Orgetorix's post I will quote it below.
Please read it and feel free to debate how "wrong" a notch lapel is in terms of rules without the verbose rhetoric. Taste is subjective and therefore irrelevant in this particular discussion of the period correctness (excluding the aesthetic) of wearing a notch lapel.

Please provide some historical background as others have done to back up their case.

Once again for your reading pleasure-

You completely missed the entire point of my response which was that notched lapels while present from early on, have always been considered as bad taste and not strictly correct stylistically speaking.

You selectively chose to quote only a portion of my response which you, I am assuming felt it easier to attempt to refute in some way.

Any part of a deductive whole taken out of context can often times be argued. When an argument is presented as a deductively sound argument, as a whole as it is meant to be taken, it is irrefutable as is my argument which you selectively mis-applied in your own response.

Take my argument as a deductive whole and try to refute it. I dare you! The point which I was making and which was completely missed by you was that just because a thing is done from time to time historically even, does not make it right! If that were so, I could argue that it is correct people to conduct some form of human sacrifice. Because while some people perpetrated this dis-tasteful act, the majority did not and considered it repugnant and beyond the pale of what "ought to be", even though it has historical precedent. Now, there is a world of difference between the essential nature of the two things which I here juxtapose and I am not in point of case comparing human sacrifice and notched lapels as for qualities or societal value, but the analog still stands as I have here demonstrated.

As to your statement regarding historical background evidence for my position, just look at any example of stylistic advice existent from between the commonality of the dinner jacket and 1980 and even today and they will in the vast majority of cases (and all which I have encountered) specifically state that a dinner jacket is to be peak lapelled! Smoking jackets which were in existence from the 1850s or 60s did have notched lapels on occasion though even these were predominantly constructed with shawl lapels. Read on sir before you begin to disertate!

If you see examples of individuals wearing notched lapel dinner jackets, it is without a doubt an example of some faddy example of "fashion", not style.

 

[draws]

You completely missed the entire point of my response which was that notched lapels while present from early on, have always been considered as bad taste and not strictly correct stylistically speaking.

You selectively chose to quote only a portion of my response which you, I am assuming felt it easier to attempt to refute in some way.

Any part of a deductive whole taken out of context can often times be argued. When an argument is presented as a deductively sound argument, as a whole as it is meant to be taken, it is irrefutable as is my argument which you selectively mis-applied in your own response.

Take my argument as a deductive whole and try to refute it. I dare you! The point which I was making and which was completely missed by you was that just because a thing is done from time to time historically even, does not make it right! If that were so, I could argue that it is correct people to conduct some form of human sacrifice. Because while some people perpetrated this dis-tasteful act, the majority did not and considered it repugnant and beyond the pale of what "ought to be", even though it has historical precedent. Now, there is a world of difference between the essential nature of the two things which I here juxtapose and I am not in point of case comparing human sacrifice and notched lapels as for qualities or societal value, but the analog still stands as I have here demonstrated.

As to your statement regarding historical background evidence for my position, just look at any example of stylistic advice existent from between the commonality of the dinner jacket and 1980 and even today and they will in the vast majority of cases (and all which I have encountered) specifically state that a dinner jacket is to be peak lapelled! Smoking jackets which were in existence from the 1850s or 60s did have notched lapels on occasion though even these were predominantly constructed with shawl lapels. Read on sir before you begin to disertate!

If you see examples of individuals wearing notched lapel dinner jackets, it is without a doubt an example of some faddy example of "fashion", not style.

Huh?

From my position behind the big green post, why didn't you just say:
"If you see examples of individuals wearing notched lapel dinner jackets, it is without a doubt an example of some faddy example of "fashion", not style"

That would have accomplished the same thing, wouldn't it have?

 

[Geesie]

No rhetoric was employed here sir. I should know. I am in college currently studying argumentation and English.

Study harder.

 

[Feraud]

Huh?

From my position behind the big green post, why didn't you just say:
"If you see examples of individuals wearing notched lapel dinner jackets, it is without a doubt an example of some faddy example of "fashion", not style"

That would have accomplished the same thing, wouldn't it have?

Yes it would! lol

 

[Midnight Blue]

Study harder.

LOL lol

 

[Midnight Blue]

I stand corrected. Boy, that is one rare garment!

 

[draws]

Study harder.

Geesie, you crack me up! lol lol lol lol

 

[Lorrel Mae]

But I gotta know ... what sort of shovel goes best with that getup?

lol !!


Sandi

 

[Brummagem Joe]

Yes, but I still think it boils down to ones perception as to whether it is semi-formal or informal. And that boils down to what "set", or periods, rules you use. Rules in the 20's, 30's, 50's etc. vary somewhat with regard to the DJ. 20's the DJ is informal, 30's semi formal, 50's the soft collar was considered a-ok, and the 70's...well, best not go there.

Though one could argue that nowadays the DJ is formal, and tails uber formal, and stupid DJ's worn by celebrities at the oscars are semi formal. Personally, I think the rule of white tie being formal, black tie being informal, and those stupid things celebrities wear at the oscars are stupid

........With all due respect I don't think you will find anyone in 2009 (which after all is the period we are in) who would consider black tie "informal." .....as to celebrity wear at the oscars this not semi formal, it's fancy dress......to be fair to the Brad Pitt's of this world some of the stars wear perfectly ok Dinner suits and then mess them up with their shirt/tie choices which are immediately replicated by Acme dress hire.....I share the prejudice against notched lapels but they are not some 70's fad.....they have been around since the twenties.

 

[Evan Everhart]

Study harder.

I made no errors. (Point goes to me, and you're rather rude with it.)

 

[Geesie]

I made no errors. (Point goes to me, and you're rather rude with it.)

If your studies of English haven't included Shakespeare (Brevity is the soul of wit) or Strunk & White (Omit needless words), your studies are lacking.

 

[Evan Everhart]

Huh?

From my position behind the big green post, why didn't you just say:
"If you see examples of individuals wearing notched lapel dinner jackets, it is without a doubt an example of some faddy example of "fashion", not style"

That would have accomplished the same thing, wouldn't it have?

If you must know, I replied as I did to answer all of the points made by Feraud, I believe it was. I was arguing my point and discussing the holes in their argument, namely that they did not address or disprove my argument as a whole. I then proceeded to give an analogous example of a fallacious argument to demonstrate the poor quality of the argument made against my argumentative position.

I then succinctly stated my argument regarding the status of the notched lapel as a fashion statement, not as a statement of good taste or classical elegance.

To the rest of you; I must say before I am finished that I am disappointed in the individuals in this forum who laughed along with this geesie person at the personal comment made.

Finally, I did not get personal. This geesie character has done so. Personal insults are vulgar and low. I will let the nature of the individual's actions speak for their "character" and also for their mettle as a gentleman. Good day.

 

[Evan Everhart]

If your studies of English haven't included Shakespeare (Brevity is the soul of wit) or Strunk & White (Omit needless words), your studies are lacking.

See my reply above, you vulgarian.

 

[Geesie]

See my reply above, you vulgarian.

Hmm, Looks like I touched a nerve there. Sorry, I will try to be more sensitive to your needs in the future.

 

[Evan Everhart]

Hmm, Looks like I touched a nerve there. Sorry, I will try to be more sensitive to your needs in the future.

If this is sincere and not a snipey jibe, then I thank you and this would indeed prove your mettle in a positive fashion. Good day to you sir, in this instance; honestly, have a good day.

 

[dhermann1]

Oh, jeez! Get over yourself, lad!