Formal Wear Primer

[draws]

I believe I have read that choice of color and material for the buttons on the white waistcoat (when such things were more commonly worn) was an area in which some individuality was allowed, and colored jeweled or enameled buttons (technically studs?) were seen. I just use the removable white cloth buttons that came with the vest. I have never seen or heard of studs for sale, but have seen pictures of sets of them on the internet.

Thanks, Richard. Any idea where I might find a set of white cloth/pearl waistcoat buttons? Also looking for a set of black as well. I will probably pick up a set of each regardless to provide some flexibility.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

I believe I have read that choice of color and material for the buttons on the white waistcoat (when such things were more commonly worn) was an area in which some individuality was allowed, and colored jeweled or enameled buttons (technically studs?) were seen.

Colored, jeweled or enameled studs & cufflinks could be worn with 'black tie', though some people regarded them as "nouveau riche". In any case, the shirt studs, waistcoat studs and cufflinks --be they colorful or plain-- had to match each other precisely. (In the 1930s, this rule relaxed a bit.) Colorful studs and cufflinks were not worn with 'white tie', though white diamonds were fine.

... should the [waistcoat stud] color match the shirt studs?

IMO, yes. They should have the same color, materials, shape and design.


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[Tomasso]

They should have the same color, materials, shape and design.
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Yep.

 

[Midnight Blue]

There is absolutely, positively no possible way that anyone can legitimately argue that notch lapels are historically "incorrect." Not as far as United States sartorial history is concerned. They have, quite simply, been around as long as Americans have been wearing dinner jackets. Period photos, catalogs, and advertisements bear this out, as they show them as early as the first decade of the 20th century. Maybe earlier. Here's a 1927 catalog page, just for example:

Argue, if you like, that they weren't as common as peaks or shawls in the prewar era. I admit it. I have a 1902 photo where the notch lapel wearer is outnumbered 15 to 1 by peaks and shawls. But there is one there, and he's no less appropriately dressed than the others.

Argue, if you like, that they aren't as elegant as a peak or shawl lapel. I agree with you. Notch lapels sometimes seem a bit too much like a business suit. I think there's nothing as elegant as a well-cut peak-lapel dinner jacket ensemble.

Argue, if you like, that notch-lapel dinner jackets are an unfortunate Americanization, a sartorial maladaptation of something the British have always done better. Ok, maybe. I'm a bit of an Anglophile myself. But the fact that I like my suits with double vents doesn't mean I won't wear one with a single vent, or that I'll tell people they're incorrect if they do.

Just don't try to argue that a notch-lapel jacket is somehow "incorrect" or inappropriate. It's a perfectly acceptable option with over a hundred years of precedent. It may be the red-headed stepchild of the evening formalwear clan, but it's certainly a legitimate member of the family.


Not sorry for the rant.

Okay, I'll take up the challenge and argue that notch lapels are not historically "correct"

As others have pointed out, notched lapel dinner jackets have been historically available, but this is a far cry from being historically "correct".

Evening wear is a matter of etiquette and the etiquette authorities have been pretty much unanimous from the invention of the dinner jacket until the disco era (when everything went to hell) that the notch lapel was not appropriate with formal evening clothes. Even the men's fashion magazines that published the previously referenced ads for notch lapel tuxedos rarely, if ever, featured them in their own fashion pictorials or in their numerous charts describing "Correct Dress" (their words, not mine).

If the argument for correctness is to be made it can only be made in a contemporary context.

 

[Tomasso]

Time to wheel out the Prince.

 

[draws]

Yep.

Tomasso, beautiful set! Any suggestions on where I could obtain a set like this?

 

[Evan Everhart]

Okay, I'll take up the challenge and argue that notch lapels are not historically "correct"

As others have pointed out, notched lapel dinner jackets have been historically available, but this is a far cry from being historically "correct".

Evening wear is a matter of etiquette and the etiquette authorities have been pretty much unanimous from the invention of the dinner jacket until the disco era (when everything went to hell) that the notch lapel was not appropriate with formal evening clothes. Even the men's fashion magazines that published the previously referenced ads for notch lapel tuxedos rarely, if ever, featured them in their own fashion pictorials or in their numerous charts describing "Correct Dress" (their words, not mine).

If the argument for correctness is to be made it can only be made in a contemporary context.

I highly and thoroughly agree with you sir! Notched lapels are beyond the pale of bad taste and stylistic incorrectness!

Perhaps the gentleman was confusing smoking jackets with shawl or notched lapels with dinner jackets? I don't know. Smoking jackets were far more casual elements of the black tie ensemble to be worn so as to prevent the "delicate feminine sensibilities" from being offended by the pungent aroma of tobacco smoke. Many of these accordingly more informal jackets were made with notched lapels as they were only meant to be worn by men while smoking, playing billiards or cards, or drinking brandy after dinner during a party. Thus stated; they are meant to be a quarter or half step down from half dress evening wear and while notched lapels were adequate for this, they are not at all correct or even adequate for dinner jackets, dinner being an at least semi-formal or half-dress occasion.

As to the possible presence of notched lapel dinner jackets in some pictorial advertisements, there have always been and always will be individuals with poor taste who insist on producing and wearing garments which, while possibly "fashionable", are certainly not stylish, tasteful, or elegant.

To All:For instance, would any of you reading this wear almost any of the monstrously appalling ensembles worn by so-called "stars" of today at such events as the Oscars? I highly doubt you would. Likewise, I hope that you as individuals interested in the "golden era" as it is so often referred to here, would not wear notched lapel dinner jackets as they most certainly equate with the aforementioned monstrously appalling ensembles and often times are components of them.

Gasp for civilization and elegance as we remember it...

As to the other gentleman's quote regarding double vented versus single vented coats, single vented coats came first as is abundantly verifiable and patently obvious to anyone who has spent any time looking at historical clothing. Frock coats; central vent with a separate panel attached at the waist seam with two buttons, one to either side of the vent, court coats; one vent, hacking coats and all forms of hunting or shooting coats; one vent. Double venting is an equally prestigious and correct type of vent, as is the absence of vents but, single venting holds precedent as it was originally done to allow coats to fall more elegantly over the thighs while riding and to make the coat less cumbersome while sitting.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

Any suggestions on where I could obtain a set like this?

eBay. They come up all the time.

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[draws]

eBay. They come up all the time.

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Thanks, Gentlemen! You guys are great. Perhaps I can help out in the future as well. Best.

 

[David V]

Time to wheel out the Prince.

Now wheel back to storage.

 

[dhermann1]

Duke Ellington used to say "If it sounds good, it is good." Does the Prince liike good? I'd say so. The notch lapel clearly is the least formal of the three choices for dinner jacket. But doesn't that old standard of quality and fit also apply here? I've seen SOO many musicians on their way to and from gigs with tacky cheap notch lapels tuxes on. But it's as much the quality and tailoring that make them look so bad. Style and fashion do evolve. I'm sure there were people in the 1890's who decried and deplored the dinner jacket as barbaric. But now it's ubiqiotous, and white tie is reserved for the White House and orchestra conductors. I have a nice shawl collar vintage tux, that's high quality and fits very well, and I think I look great in it. But I wouldn't criticize someone for weraing a high qualoty notch lapel jacket.
Those Hollywood stars in those bizarre get ups are just showing how bad their taste it. The outfits are bad because they look bad.
I think some of the rhetoric employed in sdme of these posts is a little silly. Really.
Now, if you wanna talk about something that looks awful, let's get on the subject of some of the footwear people wear with their tux.

 

[Richard Warren]

I could not find the reference I was thinking of that made mention of colorful waistcoat studs with dinner jacket, but I did find this from the NY Times of 1906:


http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=9D06E2D7173EE733A25751C0A9649D946797D6CF

 

[Midnight Blue]

Time to wheel out the Prince.

That's a contemporary photo - I rest my case. (May 2005, to be precise)

A picture of the Duke of Windsor in a notched lapel DJ would be a whole other matter . . .

 

[Marc Chevalier]

A picture of the Duke of Windsor in a notched lapel DJ would be a whole other matter . . .

Ah, the Duke. Alas, he made some incorrect (not to mention tasteless) fashion choices too:

.

 

[Richard Warren]

Well, the Duke still looks better than the Prince. Whatever they wear, the Prince looks like a shopkeeper (which may well be intentional), and the Duke looks like, well, a Duke at least.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

In the photo above, the Duke's dressed like a vaudeville clown. All that's missing is the squirting boutonniere flower.



More ridiculous Duke wear. Note the matching shirt and tie pattern. Butter yellow, including the trousers: http://pro.corbis.com/Enlargement/Enlargement.aspx?id=U1687C&caller=search


Here's twee. All that's missing is the polyester: http://pro.corbis.com/Enlargement/Enlargement.aspx?id=UKD549INP&caller=search



.

 

[Tomasso]

If the argument for correctness is to be made it can only be made in a contemporary context..........That's a contemporary photo - I rest my case. (May 2005, to be precise)

Please do, it's getting tired.

Vice President John N. Garner, 1932:

http://pro.corbis.com/Enlargement/E...6804ACME&cat=20,15,19&cf=2&mt=2&caller=search

Arturo Toscanini, 1947:

http://pro.corbis.com/Enlargement/E...00001594&cat=20,15,19&cf=2&mt=2&caller=search

Jimmy Stewart, 1956:

Sean Connery as James Bond, 1964:

http://pro.corbis.com/Enlargement/Enlargement.aspx?id=BE063340&cat=20,15,19&cf=2&mt=2&caller=search

 

[Tomasso]

As long as I'm diggin' around for pics......

6-buttons may have been popular on lounge suits for over half a century but they did not appear on dinner jackets until the '80s.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

.



Actor Eugene Pallette, who dressed very well, had a 6-button double-breasted tuxedo too. He wore it in several movies, including My Man Godfrey (1936).


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[Evan Everhart]

Duke Ellington used to say "If it sounds good, it is good." Does the Prince look good? I'd say so. The notch lapel clearly is the least formal of the three choices for dinner jacket. But doesn't that old standard of quality and fit also apply here? I've seen SOO many musicians on their way to and from gigs with tacky cheap notch lapels tuxes on. But it's as much the quality and tailoring that make them look so bad. Style and fashion do evolve. I'm sure there were people in the 1890's who decried and deplored the dinner jacket as barbaric. But now it's ubiquitous, and white tie is reserved for the White House and orchestra conductors. I have a nice shawl collar vintage tux, that's high quality and fits very well, and I think I look great in it. But I wouldn't criticize someone for wearing a high quality notch lapel jacket.
Those Hollywood stars in those bizarre get ups are just showing how bad their taste it. The outfits are bad because they look bad.
I think some of the rhetoric employed in some of these posts is a little silly. Really.
Now, if you wanna talk about something that looks awful, let's get on the subject of some of the footwear people wear with their tux.

(Note: I corrected the spelling in the quote as it was bothering me...Obsessive English student)

The individuals to whom you refer look bad because of their tacky and tasteless garments! Can you not see this?

You make the beginnings of an argument regarding your feeling that your shawl lapel dinner jacket looks good but that you wouldn't criticize someone else for wearing a high quality notch lapel dinner jacket. The one is not a logical preface to the other. The two argumentative articles have absolutely nothing to do with each other sir! I am sure that the individuals who have chosen to wear those abominable notched lapel dinner jackets have done so because they either "feel" that it looks good, or because they were negligently informed that it was either "fashionable", or "stylish", or "correct". Any such assertion is of course incorrect. There are rules sir, and there is taste. The notched lapel dinner jacket is not approved of by the one nor is it an expression of the other.

No rhetoric was employed here sir. I should know. I am in college currently studying argumentation and English. Rhetoric is the making of what appears to be an argument with either a self-contained and un-supported conclusion implicitly stated within the question, or it is the stating of a fallacious argumentative dictum which is fallacious either through grammar or logic. No such rhetoric was used.

You may attempt to argue a possible historical social unacceptability for dinner jackets sir, but that is questionable at best. After a very brief period of controversiality, they were quickly accepted and incorporated fully into the accepted cannon of male elegance, they had by the way, been existent since the 1850s or 60s as ordered by the then Prince of Wales. The peaked lapel dinner jacket thus has many generations and over 100 years of historical and cultural precedent within the accepted cannon of male elegance while the notched lapel dinner jacket has been considered incorrect for much the same time and is still considered incorrect by anyone with any knowledge of classical style and etiquette. Thusly, we may rationally state that due to the historical acceptance of the outre and bad taste which is unarguably represented by notched lapel dinner jackets since the institution of the dinner jacket as acceptable evening wear, that it is and should remain a sometimes present but ultimately always distasteful, un-stylish, and incorrect choice for the dinner jacket.

The only shoes which are commonly worn with evening wear which are incorrect are open laced shoes or those with too-rounded toes which at a distance could be confused for patent leather work boots.

If you are referring to opera pumps, they are correct and are one of the oldest items still existent in the male wardrobe as they trace their existence back to the 16th century and earlier. Any other form of non-brogued, closed laced black dress shoe with a slim silhouette is acceptable with evening wear.