Engel & Co. Hats

[DOGMAN]

Wow!That's a lot of money.Good luck to him.I sure will not be getting one of his hats.I'm way to cheap.

 

[Hurricane Jack]

I am skeptical about the use of a conformer for Soft Felt hats. Back in the day they were used for Top Hats and Stiff Felts (maybe more stiff Soft Felts) which are rigid. As mentioned Soft Felt hats (same with Stiff Felts) were made in factories (local hatters refurbished such hats) to specific sizes (maybe down to 1/4s) and in some cases offered in long oval (block dependent).

Thanks for your reply. As I said my experience with custom made-to-measure hats has been with western hats only.

 

[tommyK]

I think if he had his own felting factory and the knowledge or recipe of how they used to make the great felt we all like in vintage hats, that would really be something. Offered a product so great and that only he could produce, I might be in for a hat at that price. But Fepsa felt? The same roan leather sweatbands that everybody else can get? Where is the premium materials? That's what I don't get about Engels or Optimo in terms of pricing.

 

[Brad Bowers]

I am skeptical about the use of a conformer for Soft Felt hats. Back in the day they were used for Top Hats and Stiff Felts (maybe more stiff Soft Felts) which are rigid. As mentioned Soft Felt hats (same with Stiff Felts) were made in factories (local hatters refurbished such hats) to specific sizes (maybe down to 1/4s) and in some cases offered in long oval (block dependent).

I've always been skeptical for the same reasons; they're a useful tool for stiff hats, typically used after the point of manufacture. While a band block created from the use of a conformateur might give the best measurement of head size, the use of a monofilament-reeded leather sweatband would negate any approximation of shape. A proper soft felt hat should naturally conform.

Brad
~The Hatted Professor

 

[mayserwegener]

Thanks for your reply. As I said my experience with custom made-to-measure hats has been with western hats only.

My comments also apply to Western Soft Felt hats. See Brad's post too.

 

[alanfgag]

Very interesting observations, Steve and Brad which make sense when you pause to think about it. Contemporary hatters have access to antique tools but the products they craft are limited by modern materials and contemporary tastes and represent a limited set of hat products that were created a century earlier. The experience of visiting Optimo and having your head in a conformateur might be as much a theatrical experience as a requirement for a custom hat that will retain the head shape of its owner. When the derby/bowler saw a revival in the 1950s-60s it was a softer variation which had a better chance of conforming to head shape without the need for a custom fitting.

 

[belfastboy]

I have a standard 7 3/8 head, (closer to a true 59) slightly Long Oval. I own 22 hats (fedoras), some new off the rack, some Ebay and some custom, sized in person with the conformateur. I can say I don't really notice any diff in the fit. They all seem comfortable on my head and cannot say the customs are any more comfortable than the others. Although it is very possible that I am just numb and unaware of the subtle differences.

 

[TheDane]

Indeed an interesting debate - in several ways.

Bob: Though I haven't been around for a long time, I think we discussed the #81 block and reversed taper, the last time I passed by. #81 was a semi round block with slight taper (more than the #52). I have never seen or heard of a #82, so I can't say anything about that.

I have also never seen or heard of a fedora with true reversed taper. True reversed taper is seen on top hats from the 19'th century and on some ladies' hats. Hats like that are blocked on puzzle-blocks - usually in five pieces - not on a single piece block. You're simply not able to get the blocked felt off of the block, if this is a single piece type. When "reversed taper" is mentioned on TFL, people usually refer to an optical effect, caused by the creasing of a slightly tapered (or full) crown. I'm pretty sure, you misunderstood each other - or that he told you a "fairytale"

Brad, Steve and Allan: With all due respect, I don't agree on the uselessness of a formillon or personalized band block. It's not so much about the opening of the crown - but about the brim. I'm not a long oval, but longer than a regular. My oval is also to the "eggy" side, so the brim on a hat, blocked and flanged in regular oval, is usually quite wavery with my head in it. With a good sweatband the crown will easily conform, but not the brim. A little steam, my personalized band block and a foot tolliker takes perfectly care of that "little" problem. Just my 2 cents on the subject.

About the price, I can't help to think of the mass hysteria that breaks out, every time Apple release a new "iDing". There are already more cell-phones in Denmark than there are Danes, and "iDings" are absolutely not the cheapest of things. You can also still buy a new Leica M9 camera at around $7000 - without any lenses! Many a phone-camera-owner will probably call that completely insane, but most Leica owners will be far more understanding.

I don't know what Starbucks or Panera pay for 1/4 ounce of coffee beans - or how little they pay for the labor put into a cup - but I do know what they sell it for. Go to the cinema and buy a carton of popcorn and a soda and think of the profit ... it's humongous! Or think of a bag of potato chips or a portion of fries at McD ... same thing. I'm really not sure, the profit on an Engel & Co. hat is that unseen(?)

Would I pay $900 for a hat? Absolutely! Had the timing been a little more favorable for me, I would happily have paid $1000 for the Knox 100, Allan sold to Aaron. It's probably the most covetable US-made hat I've ever laid eyes upon! I can't congratulate Aaron enough on that score

Would I pay $900 for an Engel & Co hat? Very unlikely! Maybe if I had handled one or heard/read a positive and trustworthy report, but I would have to be convinced about a very high quality. When I visited the US in 2014, I handled 8 Stetsons in Premier "quality" (both Stetsonians and Stratos). Eight out of the eight needed a trip to a hatter for repair, before I would serve a lame mule as much as the first drop from any of them. Their price tags were about $250 ... waaaay over-priced in my mind! Price and profit are a couple of funny phenomenons

 

[Hurricane Jack]

With all due respect, I don't agree on the uselessness of a formillon or personalized band block. It's not so much about the opening of the crown - but about the brim.

Exactly. Ever take a slightly larger hat made as a round & pull in the sides to make it a long oval and get it to stay? It won't stay without the brim puckering.

 

[alanfgag]

Ole, it is always a pleasure to hear your voice.

 

[TheDane]

Ole, it is always a pleasure to hear your voice.

The pleasure is absolutely mutual, Allan. I didn't think about it when I wrote the post, but now I come to think about a pic of yours I saw a couple of years ago. (Christmas?)presents on a table, and if my memory serves me right, there was a Leica on that table. At least I can't remember, the last time my memory failed

 

[alanfgag]

Likely a good memory. I have a few.

 

[hatsRme]

Ole, it is always a pleasure to hear your voice.

Hear, HEAR!

 

[TheDane]

Hear, HEAR!

Thanks Charlie. Good to see you again! Wow, did you have surgery - or what's going on in that avatar of yours?

 

[hatsRme]

Thanks Charlie. Good to see you again! Wow, did you have surgery - or what's going on in that avatar of yours?

Underwent an "Age-ectomy" procedure... It's new for the old!

 

[Bob Roberts]

Indeed an interesting debate - in several ways.

Bob: Though I haven't been around for a long time, I think we discussed the #81 block and reversed taper, the last time I passed by. #81 was a semi round block with slight taper (more than the #52). I have never seen or heard of a #82, so I can't say anything about that.

I have also never seen or heard of a fedora with true reversed taper. True reversed taper is seen on top hats from the 19'th century and on some ladies' hats. Hats like that are blocked on puzzle-blocks - usually in five pieces - not on a single piece block. You're simply not able to get the blocked felt off of the block, if this is a single piece type. When "reversed taper" is mentioned on TFL, people usually refer to an optical effect, caused by the creasing of a slightly tapered (or full) crown. I'm pretty sure, you misunderstood each other - or that he told you a "fairytale"

Brad, Steve and Allan: With all due respect, I don't agree on the uselessness of a formillon or personalized band block. It's not so much about the opening of the crown - but about the brim. I'm not a long oval, but longer than a regular. My oval is also to the "eggy" side, so the brim on a hat, blocked and flanged in regular oval, is usually quite wavery with my head in it. With a good sweatband the crown will easily conform, but not the brim. A little steam, my personalized band block and a foot tolliker takes perfectly care of that "little" problem. Just my 2 cents on the subject.

About the price, I can't help to think of the mass hysteria that breaks out, every time Apple release a new "iDing". There are already more cell-phones in Denmark than there are Danes, and "iDings" are absolutely not the cheapest of things. You can also still buy a new Leica M9 camera at around $7000 - without any lenses! Many a phone-camera-owner will probably call that completely insane, but most Leica owners will be far more understanding.

I don't know what Starbucks or Panera pay for 1/4 ounce of coffee beans - or how little they pay for the labor put into a cup - but I do know what they sell it for. Go to the cinema and buy a carton of popcorn and a soda and think of the profit ... it's humongous! Or think of a bag of potato chips or a portion of fries at McD ... same thing. I'm really not sure, the profit on an Engel & Co. hat is that unseen(?)

Would I pay $900 for a hat? Absolutely! Had the timing been a little more favorable for me, I would happily have paid $1000 for the Knox 100, Allan sold to Aaron. It's probably the most covetable US-made hat I've ever laid eyes upon! I can't congratulate Aaron enough on that score

Would I pay $900 for an Engel & Co hat? Very unlikely! Maybe if I had handled one or heard/read a positive and trustworthy report, but I would have to be convinced about a very high quality. When I visited the US in 2014, I handled 8 Stetsons in Premier "quality" (both Stetsonians and Stratos). Eight out of the eight needed a trip to a hatter for repair, before I would serve a lame mule as much as the first drop from any of them. Their price tags were about $250 ... waaaay over-priced in my mind! Price and profit are a couple of funny phenomenons

Thx for the input once again Dane. I do remember our conversation re: "reverse taper..." I do believe in "fairytales!" Lol. Its what Mr Engle claimed... I also asked for pics of the alleged "reverse taper" block and was told some pics would be sent but we're never forthcoming...

 

[mayserwegener]

Brad, Steve and Allan: With all due respect, I don't agree on the uselessness of a formillon or personalized band block. It's not so much about the opening of the crown - but about the brim. I'm not a long oval, but longer than a regular. My oval is also to the "eggy" side, so the brim on a hat, blocked and flanged in regular oval, is usually quite wavery with my head in it. With a good sweatband the crown will easily conform, but not the brim. A little steam, my personalized band block and a foot tolliker takes perfectly care of that "little" problem. Just my 2 cents on the subject.

So what happens to the brim when you remove the formillon / personalized band block after this tweak (this is for a Soft Felt)? Stretching (assuming it's permanent) is going to cause distortion to both the crown and the brim.

 

[Lotsahats]

I've always been skeptical for the same reasons; they're a useful tool for stiff hats, typically used after the point of manufacture. While a band block created from the use of a conformateur might give the best measurement of head size, the use of a monofilament-reeded leather sweatband would negate any approximation of shape. A proper soft felt hat should naturally conform.

Brad
~The Hatted Professor

I've had hats made by two different custom hatters; the first sent me a conformateur, and the other a number of sweatbands that I was to use to find the closest, best fit. The hat made with the conformateur did not fit particularly well when I first received it, but over time, the hat grew more and more comfortable, while the hat made from the sweatband size I selected fit perfectly from the word go. Granted, this isn't a scientific study, but my anecdotal experience backs up your assertion, Brad.

Glad to see you back around, Ole! Love your perspective as always.

 

[tonyb]

There is

... Though I haven't been around for a long time, I think we discussed the #81 block and reversed taper, the last time I passed by. #81 was a semi round block with slight taper (more than the #52). I have never seen or heard of a #82, so I can't say anything about that.

I have also never seen or heard of a fedora with true reversed taper. True reversed taper is seen on top hats from the 19'th century and on some ladies' hats. Hats like that are blocked on puzzle-blocks - usually in five pieces - not on a single piece block. You're simply not able to get the blocked felt off of the block, if this is a single piece type. When "reversed taper" is mentioned on TFL, people usually refer to an optical effect, caused by the creasing of a slightly tapered (or full) crown. I'm pretty sure, you misunderstood each other - or that he told you a "fairytale" ...

Yup. Reverse taper is "real," but the effect is accomplished at one point or another after the hat body is off the block. Creasing a near-vertical crown can induce reverse taper. Widen the top of the crown relative to its dimensions at the bandline et voila, reverse taper. A deep center dent will give you a reverse taper when viewed from the side. A deep diamond crease will do it when viewed from the front and back.

There's a couple of tricks that'll induce reverse taper when viewed from any angle. Any hatter (or hat enthusiast) with much imagination might figure those out on his or her own. (There are some tips we keep to ourselves. Hard-won knowledge, you understand.) But Ole's fundamental point -- that there is no such critter as a one-piece block that'll give you reverse taper -- is well taken. I, too, have some No. 81 blocks, and I concur that they do indeed have a tad of taper. So do No. 52s, for that matter.

 

[moontheloon]

There is


Yup. Reverse taper is "real," but the effect is accomplished at one point or another after the hat body is off the block. Creasing a near-vertical crown can induce reverse taper. Widen the top of the crown relative to its dimensions at the bandline et voila, reverse taper. A deep center dent will give you a reverse taper when viewed from the side. A deep diamond crease will do it when viewed from the front and back.

There's a couple of tricks that'll induce reverse taper when viewed from any angle. Any hatter (or hat enthusiast) with much imagination might figure those out on his or her own. (There are some tips we keep to ourselves. Hard-won knowledge, you understand.) But Ole's fundamental point -- that there is no such critter as a one-piece block that'll give you reverse taper -- is well taken. I, too, have some No. 81 blocks, and I concur that they do indeed have a tad of taper. So do No. 52s, for that matter.

I just picked up a nice old 81 block

very excited about it