Engel & Co. Hats

[TheDane]

Yup. Reverse taper is "real," but the effect is accomplished at one point or another after the hat body is off the block.

Thanks, I appreciate the correction, Tony. I like the effect on other hat wearers, but I can't get tall crowns or center dents to work with my own face - so I never experimented a lot with it. Untill now I thought it was only done by creasing, but now that you tell me otherwise, I can imagine a couple of ways to stretch the upper part of the crown

So what happens to the brim when you remove the formillon / personalized band block after this tweak (this is for a Soft Felt)? Stretching (assuming it's permanent) is going to cause distortion to both the crown and the brim.

Yes I'm talking about soft felt. If you just put in the band block, the crown will retract to original shape, when the block is removed. The trick is to work the brim with a tolliker till the wobbling disappears. You have to make the brim brake very sharp, and the inner part completely flat. Then it will stay in place.

It's actually not about hatting as such, but about physics and basic, general construction rules. The brim is what keeps the shape of the hat's oval. Without it, the crown would be able to go anywhere at the fart of a fly. Think of a piece of mild steel band - say 1" x 1/16". Very wobbly in one direction! An L-profile 1" x 1" with a thickness of 1/16" is much stiffer - and in two directions (planes). Should you succeed in bending it, the one side of the "L" would wobble - and it would take some heating and hammering (or rolling) to get it straight again. Then the achieved curve would be permanent and very stiff again.

I don't think, that hatters of the 20's or 30's used a conformateur and a formillon for soft felts. They probably did the fitting on the customers head, when he picked up the hat. That's what Rocky helped me with, when I made my avatar at Mike Moores shop back in 2014.

He steamed the break a little and put it on my head, pressing the crown into shape. He then took it off, trying to hold the shape, while laying it on the finishing table. With a still warm brim brake he worked it flat with a tolliker, trying to keep the shape of my oval. It would indeed have helped him to have three hands, but he did wonders with the two of his! Three or four passes, and the hat had a perfect fit!

I guess, the ideal solution would be to "plate" and flange with a personalized aluminum plate and flange, but that is obviously impossible in real life

I also believe, that the vintage conformateur and formillion lack accuracy. It's never been a healthy practice to up- and down-scale - especially not mechanically. That's putting the kettle on for problems! On the other hand I'm sure, they pose great "Voodoo" to have around the shop

 

[TheDane]

PS: Sorry, but it all seems so compact, when the words are in my head. When I read my posts on a phone ... yeah, well ...

I guess, I'm not able to make myself clear in "tweets"

 

[Hurricane Jack]

It's actually not about hatting as such, but about physics and basic, general construction rules. The brim is what keeps the shape of the hat's oval. Without it, the crown would be able to go anywhere at the fart of a fly. Think of a piece of mild steel band - say 1" x 1/16". Very wobbly in one direction! An L-profile 1" x 1" with a thickness of 1/16" is much stiffer - and in two directions (planes). Should you succeed in bending it, the one side of the "L" would wobble - and it would take some heating and hammering (or rolling) to get it straight again. Then the achieved curve would be permanent and very stiff again.

Agreed. There is only so much that can be done with the radius of the brim "the hard way" after it has been set. Hopefully this will help with the physics.

Here is a piece of structural steel channel rolled the easy way, with legs in. The radius does have limits on what it can be drawn to but is easier to work with when rolled the easy way.

Here are structural channels rolled the hard way. Imagine if this was the brim. The radius has been set. If you try to pull the radius down further you will get pucker (wobble) on the inside radius because you will actually have too much material. The outside radius will pucker some as well trying to stretch. In structural steel they sometime help the situation by first cutting notches on the outside radius, then fill & weld them up after the new radius is set.

And just to endorse further what Ole has said here is a picture of a piece of structural angle rolled the easy way, leg out.

 

[mayserwegener]

Yes I'm talking about soft felt. If you just put in the band block, the crown will retract to original shape, when the block is removed. The trick is to work the brim with a tolliker till the wobbling disappears. You have to make the brim brake very sharp, and the inner part completely flat. Then it will stay in place.

It's actually not about hatting as such, but about physics and basic, general construction rules. The brim is what keeps the shape of the hat's oval. Without it, the crown would be able to go anywhere at the fart of a fly. Think of a piece of mild steel band - say 1" x 1/16". Very wobbly in one direction! An L-profile 1" x 1" with a thickness of 1/16" is much stiffer - and in two directions (planes). Should you succeed in bending it, the one side of the "L" would wobble - and it would take some heating and hammering (or rolling) to get it straight again. Then the achieved curve would be permanent and very stiff again.

I don't think, that hatters of the 20's or 30's used a conformateur and a formillon for soft felts. They probably did the fitting on the customers head, when he picked up the hat. That's what Rocky helped me with, when I made my avatar at Mike Moores shop back in 2014.

He steamed the break a little and put it on my head, pressing the crown into shape. He then took it off, trying to hold the shape, while laying it on the finishing table. With a still warm brim brake he worked it flat with a tolliker, trying to keep the shape of my oval. It would indeed have helped him to have three hands, but he did wonders with the two of his! Three or four passes, and the hat had a perfect fit!

I guess, the ideal solution would be to "plate" and flange with a personalized aluminum plate and flange, but that is obviously impossible in real life

I also believe, that the vintage conformateur and formillion lack accuracy. It's never been a healthy practice to up- and down-scale - especially not mechanically. That's putting the kettle on for problems! On the other hand I'm sure, they pose great "Voodoo" to have around the shop

I don't see how the inside opening maintains the pattern of the band block / formillion after removal. The old Sold Felts that I have that were stretched (in the time period) are usually more round or more oval but have noticeable brim / crown distortion (most noticeable with Homburg style hats that have more rigid brims) if stretched too much in either direction (they didn't come the factory this way). They don't have unusual openings that would match a pattern that came from a formillion. With Stiff Felts I can see this being possible because of their rigid nature but eventually they became more flexible + lighter weight and incorporate self conforming sweatbands.

 

[mayserwegener]

Agreed. There is only so much that can be done with the radius of the brim "the hard way" after it has been set. Hopefully this will help with the physics.

Here is a piece of structural steel channel rolled the easy way, with legs in. The radius does have limits on what it can be drawn to but is easier to work with when rolled the easy way.
Here are structural channels rolled the hard way. Imagine if this was the brim. The radius has been set. If you try to pull the radius down further you will get pucker (wobble) on the inside radius because you will actually have too much material. The outside radius will pucker some as well trying to stretch. In structural steel they sometime help the situation by first cutting notches on the outside radius, then fill & weld them up after the new radius is set.
And just to endorse further what Ole has said here is a picture of a piece of structural angle rolled the easy way, leg out.

I understand brim and crown distortion (I have many examples of such). I would like to see an example of a inside opening of a Soft Felt that matches an unusual formillion pattern. I can see stretching to make a longer oval or making the hat more round. If this goes too far there will be noticeable crown and brim distortion. I can see making tweaks to help hide brim distortion but that was not my point. Also I have never come across any German or Austrian hat industry (this is my focus) documentation that mentions the use of conformateur and a formillon and Soft Felt hats. I believe they were used for Top Hats and Stiff Felts at point of sale.

 

[TheDane]

I don't see how the inside opening maintains the pattern of the band block / formillion after removal.

It nevertheless works - but the use of the tolliker seems mandatory. If you don't work the brim over, it will wobble. Before I made my own band block, using a regular stretcher instead, I could never keep the brim from wobbling. Steam and the tolliker take care of that, though some hats creep back over time and need more than one conforming. How stretching was done on your hats, I can't say - but maybe they were just stretched(?)

As I tried to point out, we're absolute in agreement, when it comes to the use of conformateur/formillon "back in the day". I also don't believe, they were used for soft felts. My guess is, that web-purchases have forced hatters of today to find alternative ways to conform their hats. The face to face operation, I described earlier, is of course not possible in that scenario.

I remember a picture on a site for a contemporary western hatter (forgotten which), where the sweat had real ugly "finger-marks" from a formillon. That's the only time I've seen such traces on a (semi-)soft hat ... absolutely not desirable!

My own experience is, that soft felts - new as vintage - do not conform well to my head. Forced into shape, their brims wobble a lot. Do I use my band block, steam and tolliker, they conform without any wobbling. That's probably as close as I can get it

 

[mayserwegener]

I am not disputing that the brim will distort if the hat is stretched (permanently or temporarily). I have brought this up many times especially regarding old Stiff Felts that were stretched. Brim distortion (due to excessive front to back stretching) is so common in Stiff Felts that many here think it's by design! Some things can be done to make them look better but they will still have some distortion (assuming a significant amount of stretching). I would like to see a paper formillion pattern compared to the Soft Felt hat opening (with no band block in place). I can actually see where an undersized Soft Felt might eventually self conform into an odd shape but that would result in brim and crown distortion.

 

[RJR]

Interesting discussion.

 

[moontheloon]

This is a $900 discussion




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[mayserwegener]

I definitely have to post less here in the new year.

 

[alanfgag]

I definitely have to post less here in the new year.

I understand the resolution... but that would make me sad.

 

[moontheloon]

I definitely have to post less here in the new year.

please don't

you are one of the guys I look forward to hearing from most

 

[Frunobulax]

please don't

you are one of the guys I look forward to hearing from most

What he said.


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[Hurricane Jack]

I definitely have to post less here in the new year.

I'll defer to the expert. I'm just a P.E. & a private contractor; what do I know? I'll certainly post less & remember not to get involved in these kind of threads when I do.

 

[TheDane]

I definitely have to post less here in the new year.

That would very sad, Steve! We may not always agree on everything, but you are one of the members I have learned most from.

Discussions are there to get wiser from and make one think along new paths. That's what you make me do, but it may take some convincing attempts. You are not alone in believing what you believe in, you know

 

[Bamaboots]

I'll defer to the expert. I'm just a P.E. & a private contractor; what do I know? I'll certainly post less & remember not to get involved in these kind of threads when I do.

I hope not, H J. I ceratainly gained some insight through your explanation and always look forward to what you have to say.

 

[Bob Roberts]

Still tryin to figure that all out... I just like big, fat, bulbous crowns without any (or what appears to look like reverse) taper.

 

[mayserwegener]

I'll defer to the expert. I'm just a P.E. & a private contractor; what do I know? I'll certainly post less & remember not to get involved in these kind of threads when I do.

I definitely agree about avoiding such conversations. That had something to do with my last comment. I am not an expert on hat making but I know about the manufacturing process and that the finest hats were made in factories. I just see some of these modern custom hatter practices / opinions as self serving.

 

[Brad Bowers]

This excerpt from a 1924 Crofut & Knapp publication is apropos to our discussion.

Brad
~The Hatted Professor

 

[tonyb]

Thanks, I appreciate the correction, Tony. I like the effect on other hat wearers, but I can't get tall crowns or center dents to work with my own face - so I never experimented a lot with it. Untill now I thought it was only done by creasing, but now that you tell me otherwise, I can imagine a couple of ways to stretch the upper part of the crown ...

Without giving away too much, let's just say that if the aim is to have a crown large at the top relative to its dimensions at the bandline (or at least larger than can be accomplished with any No. 81 or 52 or whatever number crown block alone), there's another way to approach this. Subtraction vs. addition.

I'm a fan of relatively straight-sided crowns, too, but they aren't for everybody, and they can look a tad too boxy sometimes.

I like the look of the Engel & Co. hat, and I'm confident it's a fine lid. Overpriced? Of course it is. And by more than a little. But so are lots of "prestige" products. (High-end women's handbags, anyone?) I suspect the proprietor is hoping to capture that segment of the market given to thinking that very high-priced items are necessarily superior. I've heard it called the "Rodeo Drive effect." An item you couldn't get $400 for at Macy's might fetch twice that in a boutique on Rodeo Drive.

This is not to say that I would recommend anyone pay anything approaching his asking price, but I don't expect anyone to pose that question to me, either. Still, I wish him well, for not entirely altruistic reasons. If that hat sells in any numbers at all for $900 a pop, those hatters charging markedly less than half that amount would appear to be offering real bargains. Hell, those big-spending customers might decide to buy two, and still have enough left over for a night on the town.