Cads on the subway

[Carlisle Blues]

-- Parking spaces near businesses are reserved for the handicapped and for pregnant drivers.



.

As the primary caregiver for my son when he was an infant I used the pregant/newborn spots. It was necessary and a rule I am always parking in handicapped spots.

And No I do not expect anyone to give up their seat for me. Give me a break ....

 

[Senator Jack]

And besides, even though women have achieved equality or near-equality in employment and education there still remains the physical differential between the sexes. I’ve never understood why women can be on the one hand in favor of political equality but against kind or respectful gestures from men. Of course we can open a door,:eusa_doh: but isn’t it nice to have it done for us? Equality and kindness need not be mutually exclusive. Are kindness and respect being confused with condescension? Women create new life in their bodies and bring it forth and this fact renders them vulnerable at times. I think there should continue to be some special respect shown toward them on this account ( whether they are expectant or not – it is respect for the potential). Can we not progress as a society without jettisoning the best elements of the past?

Leaving the gravid, elderly, and those of broken limbs out of this:

Women, on the whole, made a choice about forty years ago that they wanted to be (and rightfully) considered as strong as men and this means both physically and emotionally. Men might not have liked it, but they accepted it (eventually) and now this is the world we live in. Don't think men aren't confused by it, because we certainly are as the natural order of male-female relationships that has been the same for some million years has now been turned upside down over night, so we're still unsure of what, exactly, women want. Do you want to be thought frail? Well, some of you do, but 95% don't and are quite vocal about it (even getting nasty when a door is held and a seat is offered), and so I have to defer to the majority. This is out of respect. It's what women wanted. Sure, I know there is still that 5% that wants to be thought frail, but I risk offending a good 95% by a pompous chauvinistic act of chivalry.

Certainly, I would not relinquish my seat to an able-bodied man my age and younger (and unless he's got a cane, even elderly men really don't want your seat because the worst thing you could suggest to a man is that he's had his time) and if women are equal, then I have to expect they want the same treatment. Or perhaps they don't. Maybe if we could put the genie back in the bottle and get back to the way things were, everyone would be happy again.


Regards,

Jack

 

[Paisley]

Parking for the Pregnant

A lady, like a gentleman, doesn't take more than she needs of public accommodations. While it's nice to have parking spaces for pregnant women who need them, a lady who happens to be hale, hardy and expecting a baby will leave them for those who are struggling. It's much more charming to decline special treatment than to insist on it. Unfortunately, we live in an era not so much of equality but of entitlement; I wouldn't be surprised if a woman who was a week late pulled into a pink parking space. It seems to me the solution is to simply have handicap parking for those with the required plate or placard.

 

[Elaina]

I don't pay on dates. I also don't ask men out, call them on the phone or let men come to my house when I am alone and in a relationship. If I did, and I have, asked them out, then obviously I pay and even pick them up.

Senator Jack, thank you for pointing the men's feelings out. I could not think of a delicate way to state that. There is a way to offer a man a seat without making him seem past his prime, and it takes a diplomatic skill to do so.

While you're right in equality, I still live in a place where I cannot get a job doing something I am better at then most men, simply because I am a woman. I do damn fine mud/finishing work on drywall, and I've been told flatly they won't hire a woman to do it. I also live in a place where the barber shop I take my son to has a sign stating "No women" and I get met IN the parking lot to get his hair cut. I also work at a place where the men that eat there don't bring their wives and make women uncomfortable for eating there. I figure based on this here, I got the right to be a little bit of a wilting flower in my town.

 

[Carlisle Blues]

Some of us just can't help being pale...fair skin is a virtue? lol

So true, so true ......for some like yourself. For others who think they are better than others it is merely a figment of a very obtuse imagination...[huh]

 

[Lady Day]

I'd like to see more people get up and move from their seat in the front to make room for a wheelchair or baby stroller without being chased off by the bus driver.

Id like to see people stop pretending there is an invisible barrier keeping them from stepping OFF a crowded bus, so people who are seated can get off promptly at their stop without having to crawl over heads to do so.

Here in LA I RARELY see people give up their seats, and if they do, they are ALWAYS young women, my self included. Thats one reason I hate sitting in the very front of the bus. Its bad form, and when spry 18 year olds take up the front seats while an elderly person has to WALK to the back, it makes me want to vomit.

In SF its a law, you HAVE to give up your front seat to an elderly passenger. I dont know if its a rule here, sans the disabled.

LD

 

[HadleyH]

Sorry, KLind. I'm not being facetious here, but whether one believes it good or bad, equality is here to stay and that means women can't decide they need chivalry only when their feet hurt. You might have to write this one off.


Regards,

Jack

...and there is your answer klind65 look no further!

 

[Lady Day]

I dont know, Jack's making a crucial point. We as women cant have hypocrisy over equality when its convenient for us. Yet we seem to want it all the time.

-Expecting a guy to give up his seat when we are perfectly able to stand.
-Wearing a super low cut blouse at an inappropriate time and wanting to betaken seriously.
-Getting mad when a fella holds the door open for you (whats that about?).
-Calling someone a Cad when you dont agree with what they are saying, although they are making a valid point.
They are all relative.

Hey, I dont like it either, but its true. Cant have it both ways although we want it both ways.

LD

 

[Carlisle Blues]

Sorry, KLind. I'm not being facetious here, but whether one believes it good or bad, equality is here to stay and that means women can't decide they need chivalry only when their feet hurt. You might have to write this one off.


Regards,

Jack

I do not think she is talking about equality..

Now I know the subway is not the first place one looks for the best-bred people. However, any class of people

 

[Senator Jack]

Here's what was asked by KLind

Fellow golden era fans, please share your opinions about the gentleman's custom of offering his seat to a lady.

This implies that men ought to still offer their seats to women because women are delicate and physically inferior to men. Most women I know do not wish to be thought of as physically inferior to men. They want to be thought of as equals. Thus, the question of equality is built into the thread. Let's not get this mixed up with manners, such as offering a seat to the elderly. Is it bad manners for a man NOT to offer his seat to another man his age? Of course not. And if women are equal, as they should be thought, it's not bad manners NOT to offer them a seat either. In fact, I could see how most women would take such an offer as an offense. As they used to say in the Virginia Slims ads, 'You've come a long way, baby,' but it's a hell of a lot longer when you don't have seat.


Regards,

Jack

 

[Carlisle Blues]

Here's what was asked by KLind



This implies that men ought to still offer their seats to women because women are delicate and physically inferior to men. Most women I know do not wish to be thought of as physically inferior to men. They want to be thought of as equals. Thus, the question of equality is built into the thread. Let's not get this mixed up with manners, such as offering a seat to the elderly. Is it bad manners for a man NOT to offer his seat to another man his age? Of course not. And if women are equal, as they should be thought, it's not bad manners NOT to offer them a seat either. In fact, I could see how most women would take such an offer as an offense. As they used to say in the Virginia Slims ads, 'You've come a long way, baby,' but it's a hell of a lot longer when you don't have seat.


Regards,

Jack

In it's purest form the question simply speaks to sexism. Nothing more nothing less. In this case a thinly veiled attempt to garner favor based on sex. shakeshead

 

[Shangas]

This implies that men ought to still offer their seats to women because women are delicate and physically inferior to men.

Perhaps in 1909 women were delicate and physically inferior to men; a woman in that day and age concerned herself with housework. Not heavy machinery, the duties of a police-officer, dog-trainer, prison-guard or any other occupation that a man might do.

A hundred years later that's becoming less and less the case. A man (of gentle breeding or not) offering his seat to a lady is a matter of MANNERS and nothing else. Women who take offense at things like this (men offering their seats, opening doors, etc), are, in my opinion - reading far too much into common courtesy. We men are not implying *anything* other than the fact that our parents taught us to be nice and polite and courteous.

 

[Senator Jack]

And feminists will argue that manners based on gender are seriously outdated. Let's say you have a seat and two people are standing before you. One's a scrawny guy without any muscle tone and the other is an athletic female. Which do you offer your seat to? The guy certainly could look like he could use it, but the athlete is a lady, so why not her? Or do you offer it to neither? If you give it to the athlete because she's a lady, that's sexist, and you've just proven yourself to be a chauvinist.

Hey, I didn't make these rules up, and while a lot of us here would prefer the way things were, the fact is we do live in the 21st century and have to abide by its mores.

Regards,

Jack

 

[olive bleu]

A hundred years later that's becoming less and less the case. A man (of gentle breeding or not) offering his seat to a lady is a matter of MANNERS and nothing else. Women who take offense at things like this (men offering their seats, opening doors, etc), are, in my opinion - reading far too much into common courtesy. We men are not implying *anything* other than the fact that our parents taught us to be nice and polite and courteous.

I am a modern woman in many respects.In my family, I am the one who goes out everyday to bring home the bacon. I shovel the snow, I fix the things that are broken around the house.

But I promise any of you fellas that if we ever meet and you kindly offer me your seat, or open a door for me...i will simply smile sweetly and say thank you.

 

[klind65]

I have never been on a subway but can say growing up I took the city bus to and from school rather then the school bus (was a faster ride) and if the seats were full, I ALWAYS offered my seat to a woman or elder.

Have even from time to time made comment out loud when other guys wont.

You are GOLD! :eusa_clap :eusa_clap , Don't ever change.

 

[klind65]

And feminists will argue that manners based on gender are seriously outdated. Let's say you have a seat and two people are standing before you. One's a scrawny guy without any muscle tone and the other is an athletic female. Which do you offer your seat to? The guy certainly could look like he could use it, but the athlete is a lady, so why not her? Or do you offer it to neither? If you give it to the athlete because she's a lady, that's sexist, and you've just proven yourself to be a chauvinist.

Hey, I didn't make these rules up, and while a lot of us here would prefer the way things were, the fact is we do live in the 21st century and have to abide by its mores.

Regards,

Jack

Good Point. From speaking to people extensively about this, I realize that while many men wish to follow traditional propriety, they are often rebuffed or castigated by females who feel it is chauvinist, as you say. The problem arises from a plurality of opinions. In the past as I understand it, there was one set of standards, expectations and rules of conduct which everyone followed. Now it is different of course. Bottom line: it comes down to finding people who share your particular preference. I just hope those gents who prefer the traditional approach will not abandon their principles simply because their vision is no longer the only one.

 

[klind65]

And feminists will argue that manners based on gender are seriously outdated. Let's say you have a seat and two people are standing before you. One's a scrawny guy without any muscle tone and the other is an athletic female. Which do you offer your seat to? The guy certainly could look like he could use it, but the athlete is a lady, so why not her? Or do you offer it to neither? If you give it to the athlete because she's a lady, that's sexist, and you've just proven yourself to be a chauvinist.

Hey, I didn't make these rules up, and while a lot of us here would prefer the way things were, the fact is we do live in the 21st century and have to abide by its mores.

Regards,

Jack

By the way, you look wonderful in your avatar - reminds me of Frank Sinatra or Dean Martin! ( That's a compliment):eusa_clap

 

[Shangas]

Thank you, Olive. You're very welcome.

Frankly, I open doors to ladies as a matter of habit these days, more than anything else.

Sen. Jack,

I well understand your point, however I think that the more...assertive...women need to understand that men are only trying to be polite and that to take offense at such actions as opening doors, carrying things and offering seats, is in many respects, both offensive in itself, and rude.

I remember a story told on a forum once, of a young man who was in his school's drama department.

The story goes that one day, they were setting up stuff on stage for a play. One of the girls, who the poster described as the 'feminist type', was carrying a piece of equipment which was far far FAR too heavy for her to move. The poster, according to his own words, not a small lad himself, stepped over and offered to carry the object for her. Apparently the girl took offense at this, that a "man was trying to put her down and insinuate that SHE couldn't do what HE could do" and so on...

The girl ended up in hospital with crook back.

 

[Paisley]

All a lady has to do to decline a seat is say, "Thanks, but I don't mind standing...Yes, I'm sure." To decline help: "Thanks, but I've got it."

 

[klind65]

Leaving the gravid, elderly, and those of broken limbs out of this:

Women, on the whole, made a choice about forty years ago that they wanted to be (and rightfully) considered as strong as men and this means both physically and emotionally. Men might not have liked it, but they accepted it (eventually) and now this is the world we live in. Don't think men aren't confused by it, because we certainly are as the natural order of male-female relationships that has been the same for some million years has now been turned upside down over night, so we're still unsure of what, exactly, women want. Do you want to be thought frail? Well, some of you do, but 95% don't and are quite vocal about it (even getting nasty when a door is held and a seat is offered), and so I have to defer to the majority. This is out of respect. It's what women wanted. Sure, I know there is still that 5% that wants to be thought frail, but I risk offending a good 95% by a pompous chauvinistic act of chivalry.

Certainly, I would not relinquish my seat to an able-bodied man my age and younger (and unless he's got a cane, even elderly men really don't want your seat because the worst thing you could suggest to a man is that he's had his time) and if women are equal, then I have to expect they want the same treatment. Or perhaps they don't. Maybe if we could put the genie back in the bottle and get back to the way things were, everyone would be happy again.


Regards,

Jack

Thanks for your intelligent posts. I've received some sarcastic and facetious responses while I really mean to take it seriously. To address what you said, this comes right to the crux of the issue in my opinion. As I understood it equality meant primarily equality of opportunity in education and employment/equal in the eyes of the law /equal pay etc... but no one can change the biological fact of the physical differential between men and women. Women are NOT possessed of as much brute physical strength as men nor have they the same testosterone levels, ergo they will never be "as strong as men". Also, they give birth (which carries with it its share of burdens and sometimes considerable pain ). Giving birth, by the way requires tremendous endurance - a different type of strength to be sure.

I don't see how any interpretation of "equality" by intelligent people can attempt to abrogate biology. I cannot understand the seeming need to go to extremes. Life is seldom so cut and dry. Why can't people allow women equal opportunity while observing and honoring the physical differential??? I see no contradiction here, only two separate facts that at the same time are true. Someone once said the ability to tolerate ambiguity is the hardest thing to accomplish. Equality never meant "identical to". As the French say, "Vive la difference". I grew up observing my father's traditional courtesies toward my mother and have always thought it the most beautiful code of conduct I've ever seen. It endowed him with a certain power and control, ( not meant nefariously ) while engendering in her a sense of being loved, cherished and adored?? I would want nothing less from my husband. She never felt (so she told me) "lesser" or "unequal" to him, quite the opposite.


I also think that there is some difference by region regarding how many women really object to the traditional propriety. In the South, where I am from, it is different from New York. Europe is somewhat different especially as regards familiarity... & so on. I applaud and share your preference for the traditional ways but please don't simply abandon them because you have been rebuffed. For every one who has rebuffed you ( and I know that can be unpleasant) there is one who would love you for it. Mike submitted a post sharing how a whole busload of people lionized him for relinquishing his seat to a lady. I have witnessed similar responses myself. The world never stays the same and I for one, hope that it will change enough to allow the gracious kindness of the past to return without having to sacrifice the acknowledged progress we have already accomplished. Thanks again for posting.