Cads on the subway

[Widebrim]

Well, I think there is a general consensus among people that things were better (including good form) in the past ,after all, why are we fans of the Golden Age in the first place? But to answer your question:
I go by the stories of my grandparents who lived in New York during the era (and rode the train), and by what I have gathered from reading books of cultural history, the history of manners, gender relations, feminism, "The Decline and Fall of the British Aristocracy" by David Cannadine was quite helpful, etc.. My book on Etiquette from 1900 -on indicates what behavioral parameters were expected and observed by most. People then were concerned with good form; there was opprobrium directed at those who abrogated the rules in contrast to today where there are few standards and people do whatever they please, regardless of whether or not it is inconsiderate of those around them. One could cite the "me" generation as being an example of a solipsistic age in which consideration for others falls far behind one's own desires. This ideology is fundamentally antithetical to maintaining a civilized society, especially in a crowded city atmosphere.
Other causal factors contributing to the erosion of the "gentleman's code" for lack of a more concise term, include the entrance of women into the workforce during WW2 and remaining there thereafter, the ascendancy of the "anti-hero" in literature and film and the women's movement of the late 60's and 70's. These social factors transformed the relations between the sexes in many ways but it need not have sounded the death knell for kindness and consideration, which is the basis upon which I rest my objection. I hope this answers your question.

And if it doesn't answer his question, I don't know what will...

Anyway, I do give up my seat to women (note: not usually teen-age girls) on a regular basis when I do have the chance to ride the bus or subway, preferring to stand up until more seats are available. I have rarely seen others do so, except ocassionally for elder women. It may make for an awkward shifting through passengers, but I was reared that way and do not feel comfortable otherwise. I simply stand up, look at the intended recipient, and say something like, "Sit here, ma'am," or "Sientese aqui', senora." I think only once was the offer kindly refused.

Regarding who rides the bus (or rails), here in Los Angeles it tends to be youths, young moms, older people, and some younger men (especially around downtown). You really don't see many middle-class-looking people on the Metro, although they likely exist somewhere (Westwood?)[huh] Ethnically, I only just again verified that the overwhelming majority of riders in the city of L.A. are Mexican, Central American (I speak Spanish, so dialect is one way to tell the difference, apart from features), Black, and East Asian (including lots of Filipinos). When you're in the city of Glendale, however, Armenians make up a large percentage of riders. As far as those of European (like myself) and Middle Eastern ancestry (apart from Glendale Armenians) are concerned, they make up a small percentage, most likely due to the fact that so many of those two groups have automobiles.

 

[mike]

In my defense, I'll say that my notions were conceived through conversations with law school classmates from New York City and its environs. I tend to think the best of people, however, and if my classmates were any indication, there's a good number of friendly and polite New Yorkers out there.

Still, everybody warned me that weakness is death in the jungle that is NYC, so I dont' know what to think about behavior on the subway.

-Dave

Well, that's sadly true in all of nature everywhere. I just watched this terrible show on communities of lions, cheetahs and hyenas and how they relate to each other during times of severe drought. Life is cutthroat everywhere with or without a metrocard!

 

[Paisley]

I ride the #2 train every day, and in my 40 years plus experience of riding the NYC subways, I'd say the rule of thumb is this. Men don't give up their seats to women of the same general age range at all. But they will often, not always, but often, give up their seats to an elderly or pregnant woman.

Sounds reasonable to me. I don't see why a healthy, able-bodied woman is more deserving of a seat than a man is.

 

[Shirin]

Bus from Jersey into NYC and my 70 year old, frail little grandmother (lol) Had to stand. She ended up politely asking someone to move their hand off their arm rest and half sat on that holding onto me for balance. While there were several young gentlemen about with seats. Made me a bit angry... It wasnt the only time either, but then again, sometimes people are very polite and courteous.

Oh jeez, with my mouth I would have said something to those boys to make one get up off the seat. My father has been working for Utah Transit for over 18 years now,and he still regularly enforces the conduct/behavior on his buses. When I was still living with him, I would ride his route after school and help him sometimes with this. People need reminders, even if they don't like it, about being considerate toward one another-- A priority my parents instilled in us from a young age.

 

[klind65]

I gave up my seat on a packed LIRR train about a month ago to an 80+ year old woman and had the entire car for the rest of the trip heave praise on me. It was too much praise actually, I think I learned my lesson

To add my two cents about various classes of people in NYC riding the subway, it is one of the things NY'ers pride themselves on; in lots of cities, public transport is for the very poor but here it is the great equalizer.

I appreciate your comments. The experience you had on the LIRR indicates in no uncertain terms that there is a paucity of good form (consideration) today and that people miss it and want it back. Thanks for doing the right thing. Teaching by example - the more we do it, the more things will change. Kind wishes, klind65

 

[Hemingway Jones]

Since I bought my Vespa, I almost never take the T anymore, but when I do, I don't even bother to sit. That sorts it all out for me.

 

[mike]

I appreciate your comments. The experience you had on the LIRR indicates in no uncertain terms that there is a paucity of good form (consideration) today and that people miss it and want it back. Thanks for doing the right thing. Teaching by example - the more we do it, the more things will change. Kind wishes, klind65

The public consensus on the train was "Your mother raised you right, she must be so proud!" I kicked myself later for not taking out my cell phone and letting these strangers let her have it lol

 

[Elaina]

I make my son do it. It doesn't matter if they're young or old, pregnant or purple. We have a pecking order, of course, but a seat must be given to a female if it is crowded.

Last time I rode it, a kid with more gold in his mouth then my jewelry box and sagging jeans gave me his seat. When I had to ride buses consistently, I was offered their seat more then I had to stand by men of all ages.

 

[Mr_D.]

Fellow golden era fans, please share your opinions about the gentleman's custom of offering his seat to a lady. Here in New York on the subway, one hardly ever sees this. Now I know the subway is not the first place one looks for the best-bred people. However, any class of people can practice good form, if taught it as a child. Ladies, do you mourn the loss of this kindness and (I'd say) respect on behalf of men? Gentlemen, do you often wish to do so but hesitate? Why? Or do you simply never feel moved to do this? Why?

I have never been on a subway but can say growing up I took the city bus to and from school rather then the school bus (was a faster ride) and if the seats were full, I ALWAYS offered my seat to a woman or elder.

Have even from time to time made comment out loud when other guys wont.

 

[reetpleat]

Well, I think there is a general consensus among people that things were better (including good form) in the past ,after all, why are we fans of the Golden Age in the first place? But to answer your question:
I go by the stories of my grandparents who lived in New York during the era (and rode the train), and by what I have gathered from reading books of cultural history, the history of manners, gender relations, feminism, "The Decline and Fall of the British Aristocracy" by David Cannadine was quite helpful, etc.. My book on Etiquette from 1900 -on indicates what behavioral parameters were expected and observed by most. People then were concerned with good form; there was opprobrium directed at those who abrogated the rules in contrast to today where there are few standards and people do whatever they please, regardless of whether or not it is inconsiderate of those around them. One could cite the "me" generation as being an example of a solipsistic age in which consideration for others falls far behind one's own desires. This ideology is fundamentally antithetical to maintaining a civilized society, especially in a crowded city atmosphere.
Other causal factors contributing to the erosion of the "gentleman's code" for lack of a more concise term, include the entrance of women into the workforce during WW2 and remaining there thereafter, the ascendancy of the "anti-hero" in literature and film and the women's movement of the late 60's and 70's. These social factors transformed the relations between the sexes in many ways but it need not have sounded the death knell for kindness and consideration, which is the basis upon which I rest my objection. I hope this answers your question.

You seem to equate kindness and consideration to men giving their seat to women. Frankly, I don't see why women are particularly deserving of my seat. Now, old people, or pregnant women, or disable people will always get my seat. and women or defenseless people will often gt my protection or help, more so than men. But giving up my seat, not really. I don't think i am any better equipped to stand than a woman. To do so seems sexist to me.

 

[Senator Jack]

Umm, seems to me the reason men don't offer seats to women unless they're gravid or elderly is that too many women interpret the offer as the man's way of trying to initiate conversation (i.e. they think they're being hit on.) Who needs the aggravation when you're only trying to be polite?

Sorry, KLind. I'm not being facetious here, but whether one believes it good or bad, equality is here to stay and that means women can't decide they need chivalry only when their feet hurt. You might have to write this one off.


Regards,

Jack

 

[Diamondback]

While there were several young gentlemen about with seats.

Using the term "gentlemen" in the loosest possible context, right?

Around here, it's uncommon to see a full bus, but if I see a lady or senior or someone who's disabled getting on and there isn't a seat better than mine available I'll at least offer it to them.

If there are still seats as accessible as mine or better, though, or the offer is declined, the Briefcase Monster (30lb. man-portable "field office") and I are staying put.

 

[Elaina]

I do think some of it is where you live as well.

I don't think anything of a man holding doors for me, hands full or not. I also think nothing of the "Honey will you get that off the shelf for me?" in stores by old women, speaking to strangers in line and I use Ma'am and Sir and me holding the door for the elderly. None of these was overly common outside of the south when I've left and was commented on it every time.

Of course one must react to a chivalrous act appropriately too. I'm not above batting my lashes and gushing about it either, so there IS a trade off. They go out of their way and I go out of mine to make sure they know it's appreciated.

 

[mike]

Umm, seems to me the reason men don't offer seats to women unless they're gravid or elderly is that too many women interpret the offer as the man's way of trying to initiate conversation (i.e. they think they're being hit on.) Who needs the aggravation when you're only trying to be polite?

Sorry, KLind. I'm not being facetious here, but whether one believes it good or bad, equality is here to stay and that means women can't decide they need chivalry only when their feet hurt. You might have to write this one off.


Regards,

Jack

You cad, you

 

[get_atomized]

I try to always give up my seat on the bus or streetcar or subway to anyone who looks like they're having a harder time than I am for whatever reason and needs the seat more than I do. As for the manners of others, I get more harassment than offers to sit down on public transporation here.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

I'd like to see, at least once in my life, a young and able-bodied woman give up her seat to a young but not so able-bodied (read: exhausted) man.

.

 

[lolly_loisides]

I'd like to see, at least once in my life, a young and able-bodied woman give up her seat to a young but not so able-bodied (read: exhausted) man.

.

Fair call. While I always stand up for an elderly man or woman, I've never thought to stand up for a younger one. Being exhausted is non gender (or age) specific.

 

[Shangas]

Gentlemen, do you often wish to do so but hesitate? Why? Or do you simply never feel moved to do this? Why?

It's not so much that I 'hesitate', it's just a matter of whether it's really necessary. I won't bother giving up MY seat if there are other seats around. I'm more inclined to give up my seat if there are literally no other seats left. I'd be more inclined to give up my seat if the lady in question was significantly older/pregnant/with a baby/child/immense load of shopping. I certainly wouldn't mind moving if asked. However, it's rarely gotten to the occasion where I have to give up my seats these days, since I don't ride public transport during the rush-hours anymore (7-9am, 3-4pm, 5-7pm), when there are folks going to and from work and school.

However...to restore faith in humanity, courtesy and manners...

Giving up one's seat on public transport is not a lost art. In fact I was very surprised when a woman on the tram gave up her seat for me! I'm only a young chap in his early twenties and I can stand up a rocking, rolling, vibrating tram for hours if I have to. On this particular day, I was coming home from university. It was very late at night (seven, eight o'clock?) in the middle of winter, very cold outside and very dark.

I have a significant visual impairment (what folks around here before the age of PC might call "poor eyesight"), and at night I find my way around town with a white cane. I got onto the tram holding my cane and I was leaning on it (like some folks might do with a walking-stick) and minding my own business and this lady in her mid thirties, I would say, turned to me and offered me her seat.

I've got bad eyesight, not a broken leg...but it was a nice gesture anyway, and I did sit down. Considering that the tram was full of twice the usual number of people, I was actually quite glad to sit down, since I had a half-hour ride before me.

 

[Carlisle Blues]

Now I know the subway is not the first place one looks for the best-bred people. However, any class of people can practice good form, if taught it as a child.

Truth be told I am some loser guy born and ill-bred in the housing projects of The Bronx.

Nevertheless, I always gave my seat to those who needed it. Not just because they are of a certain sex. Talk about setting the work of the suffragettes back a thousand years.

Incidentally, you can address me as Doctor or Professor or Sir any of those will do just fine.

 

[Feraud]

Talk about setting the work of the suffragettes back a thousand years.

Mmmm the good 'ol days.